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Old November 10th, 2016, 02:19 PM   #3441
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They should run a new IC series Lelystad-Almere-A'dam Zuid-Schiphol- HSL- Rotterdam.
How about extending that service to Zwolle or even further, because the Hanzelijn allows for 200 km/h running.
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Old November 10th, 2016, 03:34 PM   #3442
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Duivendrecht is probably of almost no local importance, but it's relevant as an interchange to the metro: if ICs don't stop there, there is no other fast way to reach central Amsterdam (given that the new metro line to A'dam Zuid will still take some time...).

I would explore the concept of sending some HSL services to Zuid (and over) instead of Centraal. As of today, even in such a dense offer, there is no direct connection between Zuid station and Rotterdam.
I don't have data to say if Rotterdam - Zwolle would be faster than via Utrecht, but for sure Rotterdam - Almere/Lelystad would be MUCH faster than the current trip via Den Haag and Amsterdam CS...

It's a matter of demand in the Amsterdam area. It is well known that Zuid is getting heavier in recent years, but I don't know if it can steal some of the IC Direct offer from Centraal (I don't know if Schiphol's 3 platforms can manage extra trains).
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Old November 10th, 2016, 03:48 PM   #3443
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They need to expand the Schiphol tunnels with two new tracks.

It should be possible with some modifications in the passanger terminal, maybe they will do that whenever they give the main hall a facelift.
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Old November 10th, 2016, 06:03 PM   #3444
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Which Dutch stations have underground passageways for carts or service personnel?
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Old November 10th, 2016, 09:50 PM   #3445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
They need to expand the Schiphol tunnels with two new tracks.

It should be possible with some modifications in the passenger terminal, maybe they will do that whenever they give the main hall a facelift.
The current tunnel was doubled together with the construction of Schiphol Plaza and a complete renovation of the Buitenveldertbaan runway. It was done when Schiphol was at 15 million passengers a year, now it's over 60 million.

Nowadays it's simply impossible to built a new tunnel directly next to the current one and significantly expand the current station. It would have too big of an impact on the airport operations. The only possible way is to drill a new tunnel deep underneath the airport with a separate new station a bit further away from the current entrance.

But right now the most likely new rail infrastructure to Schiphol is an Airport link for the Amsterdam Metro system.


ps. Duivendrecht is a station that was more much important before the new Amsterdam Bijlmer ArenA station and the direct link from that station to Amsterdam Zuid were opened. Back then it was the transfer station for passengers from Utrecht to Schiphol. With the new link there's simply no need for transfers anymore and that's why the Amsterdam - Utrecht ICs don't stop there anymore.
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Old November 11th, 2016, 02:03 PM   #3446
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The actual problem isn't track capacity in the tunnel, but high platform occupation in the station itself. If they were to build 2 extra platforms ('Spoor 0' and 'Spoor 7') and reserve those platforms for HSL-traffic that could work. The existing station terminal building seems wide enough for that.
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Old November 11th, 2016, 02:09 PM   #3447
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Why didn't they build a more spacious station at Schiphol to begin with?
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Old November 11th, 2016, 02:37 PM   #3448
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Because it wasn't deemed necessary.
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Old November 11th, 2016, 04:56 PM   #3449
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Why didn't they build a more spacious station at Schiphol to begin with?
Because they misplaced their crystal ball and didn't foresee the actual growth.

But on another note: There is no way to tell in advance which length of train is coming up next and where the doors are going to be, which results in alighting and boarding in the Netherlands taking ages. Thus trains spent much more time at platforms then necessary, preventing platform access for the next trains. Guess why in Japan trains have shorter carriages yet more doors per side?
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Old November 11th, 2016, 07:54 PM   #3450
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I have a historical question: before 1986, when they finally opened the full Leiden-Schiphol-Sloterdijk line (I read that, first only a connection to Schiphol was openened), what was the fastest travel option between Amsterdam and Rotterdam? Did they run Intercity trains via Gouda in that route? Going all around Haarlem must have taken ages.
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Old November 11th, 2016, 07:58 PM   #3451
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Quote:
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But on another note: There is no way to tell in advance which length of train is coming up next and where the doors are going to be, which results in alighting and boarding in the Netherlands taking ages. Thus trains spent much more time at platforms then necessary, preventing platform access for the next trains. Guess why in Japan trains have shorter carriages yet more doors per side?
That should be fairly easy to signal, shouldn't it?

I get that information (length of train, number of seats, location of classes) on my NS Xtra app... It has always worked so far (never been in a train that didn't match the composition shown in the app).

1.5 year ago I asked a question here about a LCD panel test in Den Bosch, showing where doors would be. I never saw the system implemented elsewhere.

Something that could make boarding faster would be every passenger disembarking through the door in front of them, and everybody embarking and then walking in direction of travel inside the trains. That is virtually impossible to implement though.
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Old November 11th, 2016, 11:05 PM   #3452
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I have a historical question: before 1986, when they finally opened the full Leiden-Schiphol-Sloterdijk line (I read that, first only a connection to Schiphol was openened), what was the fastest travel option between Amsterdam and Rotterdam? Did they run Intercity trains via Gouda in that route? Going all around Haarlem must have taken ages.
The route of the IC trains was via Haarlem, there have never been any ICs via Gouda. Maybe there were some fast trains before there were Intercities, but that's a very long time ago.

The route via Haarlem is only a couple of km's longer then the route via Schiphol, the new line didn't cut the journey short. Still today it takes the same time to travel from Leiden to Amsterdam on both routes, 35 minutes. In 1987 the same trip was 34 minutes. In 1986 the IC Amsterdam - Haarlem - Leiden stopped less often then the fast train that replaced it. In other words the IC trains via Haarlem were probabaly faster then the IC trains via Schiphol a year later. I cannot check this directly since my oldest timetable I have here is from '86 -'87, the 1st year of the fully completed Schiphol line.

In 1987 the IC trains took 1:03 from Rotterdam to Amsterdam CS.

Now it's 0:42 via the HSL or 1:10 via the old line (with 8 stops instead of just 4 1987)
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Old November 12th, 2016, 10:38 AM   #3453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
That should be fairly easy to signal, shouldn't it?

I get that information (length of train, number of seats, location of classes) on my NS Xtra app... It has always worked so far (never been in a train that didn't match the composition shown in the app).

1.5 year ago I asked a question here about a LCD panel test in Den Bosch, showing where doors would be. I never saw the system implemented elsewhere.

Something that could make boarding faster would be every passenger disembarking through the door in front of them, and everybody embarking and then walking in direction of travel inside the trains. That is virtually impossible to implement though.
A new LCD panel will be used at Schiphol in the future (Q2 2017), at least at platforms 1 and 2.
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Old November 12th, 2016, 11:57 AM   #3454
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First of all excuse my lack of knowledge about railways, I am just an occasional NS user/sufferer.

A few years ago (2010) a journey from Vlissingen to Amsterdam took two an a half hours, with the semi-direct trains that only stopped at Middelburg, Goes and Bergen op Zoom.

Then we lost the connection with Schiphol and got Haarlem instead. And the semi-direct trains with less stops were cancelled and we got one train every half an hour stopping at all the stations, increasing the journey time to Amsterdam increased to 2 hours and 45 minutes.

After lots of complains, we got the trains to Schiphol restored, but the journey time to Amsterdam increased even more, close to three hours.

And now we are back to Haarlem again, no direct train to Schiphol and more than three hours to Amsterdam. People crossing with the ferry from Zeeuws Vlaanderen at Vlissingen to get to Schiphol will love it.

Seriously, does any of the bosses at NS have a lover living in Haarlem or something? I don't understand why such fixation with Haarlem.

At this pace, in 20 years it will be quicker to bike from Vlissingen to Amsterdam than to take the train. Wish ticket prices would slow down as much as time travels to the Randstad have.
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Old November 12th, 2016, 01:01 PM   #3455
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In 1987 Vlissingen - Amsterdam took 2:42 direct. In 2010 it was 2:21 with a 4 minute change in Rotterdam (or 2:41 direct). Now it takes 2:30 with a 5 minutes change in Rotterdam (or 2:56 direct), from December it will be 2:45 with a 17 minutes change at Rotterdam (or 3:03 direct). I would say that the worsened connection at Rotterdam to the IC Direct (either a 1 minute (too short) or 17/19 minute connection) is a bigger issue then losing a direct connection to Schiphol.

When the HSL will be fully utilized in the future it might become interesting to have a direct fast connection between Vlissingen and Breda.

The problem is that the passenger numbers on the line to Zeeland are steadily dropping over the years. One could argue that this happens because of services slowing down and less frequent. But dropping passenger numbers is never a good incentive to significantly improve services again. The market is too small for a separate faster IC between Vlissingen and Roosendaal and a Sprinter service.

As for the changes between Rotterdam - Den Haag - Amsterdam. There are simply too many passengers and therefor trains between these cities nowadays. More trains means slower connection, especially with the lack of tracks between the cities and the continuing aftermath of the HSL debacle.

The NS have chosen to just 3 fixed corridors going up to Amsterdam. All the trains from Rotterdam via Den Haag HS go to Amsterdam Central via Haarlem. All the trains from Den Haag Centraal go to Amsterdam Zuid (and beyond) via Schiphol. The IC Direct will be the only IC trains running via Schiphol to Amsterdam Centraal via Schiphol. This has to do with the lack of capacity between Schiphol and Amsterdam, not the Schiphol tunnel, but mainly on the Westtak line between the 2 stations. The trains from Den Haag Centraal use the extra capacity created by the doubling of the line from Schiphol to Amsterdam Zuid.
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Old November 12th, 2016, 01:08 PM   #3456
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Zeeland is really on a bad spot now with long connections in Rotterdam. If they could arrange for connections in Breda, it would help. I had thought of extending the Sprinter Utrecht - Breda to Rosendaal but they have now re-routed it as a Den Bosch-Dordrecht Sprinter.
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Old November 12th, 2016, 01:11 PM   #3457
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The NS have chosen to just 3 fixed corridors going up to Amsterdam. All the trains from Rotterdam via Den Haag HS go to Amsterdam Central via Haarlem. All the trains from Den Haag Centraal go to Amsterdam Zuid (and beyond) via Schiphol. The IC Direct will be the only IC trains running via Schiphol to Amsterdam Centraal via Schiphol. This has to do with the lack of capacity between Schiphol and Amsterdam, not the Schiphol tunnel, but mainly on the Westtak line between the 2 stations. The trains from Den Haag Centraal use the extra capacity created by the doubling of the line from Schiphol to Amsterdam Zuid.
This was the plan altogether when they broke many ICs in Leiden and rerouted others through Haarlem, unfortunately facing problems soon after because of the snow damage to the Fyra V250 trains.
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Old November 12th, 2016, 11:32 PM   #3458
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Quote:
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The problem is that the passenger numbers on the line to Zeeland are steadily dropping over the years. One could argue that this happens because of services slowing down and less frequent. But dropping passenger numbers is never a good incentive to significantly improve services again. The market is too small for a separate faster IC between Vlissingen and Roosendaal and a Sprinter service.

As for the changes between Rotterdam - Den Haag - Amsterdam. There are simply too many passengers and therefor trains between these cities nowadays. More trains means slower connection, especially with the lack of tracks between the cities and the continuing aftermath of the HSL debacle.
The problem can be divided into more problems:
A: the train became slower up north during the past years
B: the train became slower in the province itself
C: the requirements from the national government (2x/h for all sprinter and IC trains on the mainline) do not fit to the situation in Zeeland
D: the double-decker trains going to Zeeland are EXTREMELY big as a result from the demand between Rotterdam and Amsterdam.

So it is better to bring faster trains, with a dedicated IC and one sprinter/IC stopping at all stations and more direct connections to speed up travelling further north, loosen requirements for Zeeland to allow once-hourly stop patterns and most importantly: cut the train in Rotterdam!

Why? So a much shorter, single-deck train can easily provide the IC service on all of the traject. To make the news better: four of the smallest NS trains an hour offer the same or an even lower capacity as two double-deckers now. When investing in a slightly higher speed to and in Zeeland as well (160kph, like with the mandatory roll-out of ERTMS and shorter halts), almost all of Zeeland, including the micro-urban region of Middelburg-Vlissingen will fall within the maximum reasonable commute time from Rotterdam (well below 90 minutes). The investment not profitable? A typical short-sighted Dutch argument. Think about the long-term. Half of Scandinavia would be inaccessible (and impoverish) when using this argument over and over again.

More profitable is likely to have one real IC and one IC that stops in all villages beyond Bergen op Zoom. When a train can be manned in the same way as regional lines in the north and east (just only the driver) then I see it becoming profitable. But one can also invest in an extra direct train to Breda and so offering more to the passengers in Zeeland.
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Old November 12th, 2016, 11:35 PM   #3459
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A train with a planned transfer in Breda wouldn't provide a faster connection between Roosendaal and Rotterdam?
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Old November 13th, 2016, 12:41 AM   #3460
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The biggest problem in Zeeland is that the passenger numbers are simply not big enough for more services.


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This was the plan altogether when they broke many ICs in Leiden and rerouted others through Haarlem, unfortunately facing problems soon after because of the snow damage to the Fyra V250 trains.
Not exactly, all IC from Rotterdam to Amsterdam via the old line were supposed to go via Haarlem. Just to fill the Fyra trains between Rotterdam and Schiphol. But from Den Haag it wasn't as channeled into corridors as much as it will now be. You still had, and still have until December ICs from Den Haag Centraal via Leiden and Schiphol to Amsterdam.

Leiden wasn't the station where these IC were broken up, it was just become a bigger hub station for people traveling to and from Schiphol and Amsterdam Zuid.
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