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Old November 18th, 2016, 10:28 PM   #3481
Wilhem275
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Hear hear, a little bird just told me there's something going on about the in-famous V250s...

A friend of a friend of a friend reported that they took a couple of those white-red large paperweights for some tests.
One was launched at >300 km/h to test the wheelsets, which turned out so fine they're considering an upgrade of the electronics from 5,5 to 7 MW.
The other was stripped down to try to understand what's wrong with them and what needs to be rebuilt. Turns out, there's not a single carriage assembled like another...

There's still nothing official, so it should be treated as "I'll believe it when I'll see it". But it looks like this time it's serious.

I told you, there's only one operator on this Earth that can make those things work
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Old November 19th, 2016, 12:30 AM   #3482
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Who is doing the engineering work? As the units are still owned by Finmeccanica (Hitachi didn't want the V250 or IC4 projects), is that being undertaken in Pistoia despite that plant having transferred ownerships? Or are the Trenitalia workshops looking at it?
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Old November 19th, 2016, 05:26 AM   #3483
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AFAIK the work would be done by Hitachi itself, commissioned by Finmeccanica (now rebranded Leonardo-Finmeccanica). It looks like, despite not owning the trains anymore, Hitachi's management is willing to demonstrate that they can actually enter service.

So, the work would be done in Pistoia, but part of the tests were performed in Trenitalia's depot Fiorenza (Milan). There's even a V250 visible in the yard in Google Earth. High speed trials were performed during night time on the Turin - Milan HSL.


As you may know, Trenitalia's HS services are branded "Red Arrows", "Silver Arrows" and so on... so, among railfans, these trainsets are now known as "Orange Arrows"
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Old November 19th, 2016, 08:56 AM   #3484
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THE NETHERLANDS | Railways

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
The other was stripped down to try to understand what's wrong with them and what needs to be rebuilt. Turns out, there's not a single carriage assembled like another...
They didn't had to strip down a V250 to find out. This was already reported and a reason to reject the delivery of V250 by NS/NMBS, as there was no uniform way for maintenance.

So now clear evidence to the Ansaldo-Breda propagandist on this forum: they are not able to design and construct their own trains. In best case they do a good job to construct a train designed by another company like Alstom.
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Old November 19th, 2016, 03:17 PM   #3485
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So now clear evidence to the Ansaldo-Breda propagandist on this forum
Is there some? I mean, it's no secret that anything built by them had to be stripped down and rebuilt by Trenitalia before being able to enter service
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Old November 19th, 2016, 06:11 PM   #3486
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The V250 issues are more complicated than that. It involved too broadly defined requirements of the operator, a legal/engineering team at the manufacturer with instructions to push and bend contract specifications without breaking them (else they couldn't offer trainsets so cheap) to lower costs, and them some execution issues.

It is acceptable to partially blame AnsaldoBreda for the latter, but blame is shared regarding the other two.

A friend's brother who worked on the company no long works there. He now works at Siemens, and also changed department to work on signaling.

AnsaldoBreda won the V250 bid with razor-thin margins that required lots of orders to make design costs pay off. Some people at the company, at the time, said the issues with the Danish trains scared other operators from even considering their bids, so they were stuck with design costs for what started to look like a train that would not sell more before it were under operation for a while in NL/BE. The V250 exports the company thought they'd do for now defunct HSL projects in Argentina, Mexico and some other places also put a strain. So, at some point, they did not have all the money they needed to make it a proper train series, panicked, and then tried to assemble trains fast so that, once they'd been running, they could seek more contracts with a proven product already working.

This all started with the issues on Danish trains, IMHO. It spilled to other projects, and it almost derailed (pun intended) the last big AB contract (the automated urban trains sold to Honolulu Rail).

The V250 is not a bad concept. It was plagued by issues unrelated to its conception (a high speed budget trainset aimed at a then-expanding market with project bubbling in all continent in the mid-2000s).
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Old November 19th, 2016, 11:08 PM   #3487
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Interesting opinion showing some more depth on the issue rather than the Dutch-media Fyra Affair. Thanks.
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Old November 20th, 2016, 01:01 AM   #3488
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Quote:
AnsaldoBreda won the V250 bid with razor-thin margins
In essence AB promised they would deliver a product at a cost and entered into this contract themselves. You do know if AB promised unicorns in their tender they would be legally obliged to deliver them even if they knew thgis was impossible when submitting the tender.
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Old November 20th, 2016, 01:15 AM   #3489
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In essence AB promised they would deliver a product at a cost and entered into this contract themselves. You do know if AB promised unicorns in their tender they would be legally obliged to deliver them even if they knew thgis was impossible when submitting the tender.
They gambled on their NS/SNCB contract, hoping they would barely break even or even take a loss, but get a full order book from Argentina, Mexico, Saudi Arabia, so that development costs would be spread out through many train sets. This never happened, the financial crisis came, money became tight and AB panicked to deliver the train sets without further compounding delays, expecting to salvage the project from a commercial stand point.

NS, in particular, was very eager to give the contract to a budget-high speed train manufacturer, saving $ 200m or so on contract instead of going for other products in the market (and, then, none of the 3 major manufacturers with experience in Europe were able to deliver as many trains in as little time - they were all very busy when the tender was signed).

A somehow related situation afflicts the A380 airplane from Airbus. Of course scales are different, but they spent $ 11 billion developing the thing, only to find orders, albeit large, not enough to cover the immense sunk costs that Airbus had expected to cover with a book twice as large as they actually have right now. However, they did finish the development, commissioned the plane and now whatever order they take are good, the dev. costs are sunk costs. AnsaldoBreda tried to shortcut the process a bit, and of course there is more leeway in commissioning a new train than a new airplane.

By the time of final assembly, AB was just scrambling to deliver a payable order. Money was super tight, and the philosophy had become " do more with less". Some say it was part of the window dressing for the eventual sale of the rolling stock business.

In a nutshell, from AB perspective, the whole NS/SNCB order was a big set of prototypes where they could thinker a bit to try to improve product as they were assembling the sets, hence more differences between each train (it was all legal according to the contract, I believe, though not a good practice and something that would upset the client).

I know for a fact some Hitachi engineers had the shock of their lives when they first ' took over' the floor shop, so to speak. There were some unusual things compared to how business is done back at their country, which partially explains, ex-post, why the V250 have "customized" wiring and the like.
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Old November 20th, 2016, 01:48 AM   #3490
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
A friend's brother who worked on the company no long works there.
Ahh, finally your obsession with the V250 is explained
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Old November 20th, 2016, 02:23 AM   #3491
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Ahh, finally your obsession with the V250 is explained
I like the nose of the V250, it is one of the best design elements of high speed trains over last 20 years anywhere in the World. I like the concept. It did have execution problems and, in the end, it caused problems on NS schedule and operation.
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Old November 20th, 2016, 02:47 AM   #3492
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I like the nose of the V250, it is one of the best design elements of high speed trains over last 20 years anywhere in the World.
Proost!
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Old November 20th, 2016, 11:53 AM   #3493
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Did Alstom turn a profit with their sale of AGV to Italy or is it another example of the same gamble ?

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Old November 20th, 2016, 07:06 PM   #3494
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I don't think the AGV has worked out for Alstom in the way they hoped it would. NTV is their first and only customer for the AGV platform, which has been in development for nearly 10 years. At the same time, larger orders went to Siemens (Eurostar, Turkey) or Bombardier (Trenitalia, China).

For Alstom, the success seems to be in the mid-speed range (Pendolino) and they've got a good customer with SNCF ordering more and more TGV Duplex trains.
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Old November 24th, 2016, 10:15 AM   #3495
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I would like to know how if I want to travel by train from Amsterdam to Rome?
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Old November 24th, 2016, 10:33 AM   #3496
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Several options. Start with www.seat61.com .

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Old November 24th, 2016, 06:47 PM   #3497
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Use www.bahn.de to plan your journey and either book the tickets yourself (you might have to use multiple websites) or go to Treinreiswinkel to have them do that for you.
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Old November 26th, 2016, 07:54 PM   #3498
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Quote:
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Yeah there's loads of excess capacity in our rush hour trains on what's already the most-frequently traveled network in Europe
There's still free capacity, especially outside Randstad, above that, the pricing and ticketing as of now doesn't address this problem effectively.

Randstad is a case on its own and it should rather been compared to large agglomeration public transport than a railway system anyway.

As I said already, it would be better to subsidize this system to increase the capacity and decrease the ticket prices then to subsidize certain ridership groups.
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Old November 26th, 2016, 08:02 PM   #3499
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I don't think NS subscription plans are expensive for Dutch income levels..
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Old November 26th, 2016, 09:50 PM   #3500
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I don't think NS subscription plans are expensive for Dutch income levels..
We had it over whether the train is competitive with a car in the Netherlands. I don't think it is.

As about the pricing. It always depends on with what do you compare it. Compare it with Czech train prices and it is more expensive, income wise. But that is extreme, Czech train service is the cheapest in Europe I guess, income wise.
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