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Old November 26th, 2016, 10:39 PM   #3501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
We had it over whether the train is competitive with a car in the Netherlands. I don't think it is.

As about the pricing. It always depends on with what do you compare it. Compare it with Czech train prices and it is more expensive, income wise. But that is extreme, Czech train service is the cheapest in Europe I guess, income wise.
If you consider total ownership and operation costs of car (insurance, road tax, fuel, maintenance), train travel is already cheaper on subscriptions plans.

The Dutch train network works great for someone who, simultaneously:
(1) lives close enough to a station to walk/cycle (or take a fast tram/subway in the 3 cities that have them)
(2) works close enough to another train station

In those circumstances, it is very hard to beat the convenience of train transport, especially as parking places for offices near train stations is often expensive as well, adding to the costs.

Trains are rather packed at peak times. There are just a handful station without at least 2x/hour service during daytime.

I think NS doesn't have a problem attracting people for whom the train is a feasible alternative. It is also paid for free passes for students (which are less time-sensitive than older adults with families).

The problem, which I don't think can be fixed with subsidies, is that many people don't live AND don't work close enough to a station, making the proposition of using bus + train + bus very bad time-wise. I'm talking adding 90-120 min to a person's commute each day. Many people would not be taking such jobs if commute took 2h, instead of 30-45min, each way.

So, in my opinion, further subsidization of train fares would benefit, mostly, those who already use train because they live/work on places where using train is convenient. . Specifically, subsidization of single train fares would be a boon for those who occasionally use train because it is convenient, such as people going to the airport, or to another city on non-recurrent trips.
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Old November 26th, 2016, 10:51 PM   #3502
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I have to agree with Suburbanist on this one: Dutch train prices are quite competitive against car use, except for those who *never* travel with a train and thus don't have a discount pass.

The best way to increase ridership is therefore to increase capacity where needed, reduce journey times, and improve connections between the different modalities.
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Old November 27th, 2016, 12:53 PM   #3503
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Surel, here you may see the Dutch Intercity Network (it's from 2015, i.e. two years old, but the 2017 one is basically the same).

Intercitynet NL 2015 [CC BY 3.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0)], by Dennistw (Classical geographer), from Wikimedia Commons
As you may see there are several connections having 4 trains an hour, and quite many having 2 trains an hour.
VIRM Lelystad by Peter Reading, on Flickr
Many of the trains are double decker. And they are not empty.
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Old November 28th, 2016, 12:11 AM   #3504
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And I use them quite often .

And I am all for increasing the intervals and making the Randstad yet more connected in a S-Bahn style. That would require infrastructure investments and allow much affordable subscription plans. And I am all for it let Randstad pay for it.

The rest of the country could utilize the trains even now much better with a better ticketing system. In fact even the whole system could be much better utilized with better ticketing.
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Old November 28th, 2016, 01:14 AM   #3505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
The rest of the country could utilize the trains even now much better with a better ticketing system. In fact even the whole system could be much better utilized with better ticketing.
What's the problem with the ticketing? I like the current system. Then again, I don't use the train on a regular basis for commuting
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Old November 28th, 2016, 09:43 AM   #3506
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One thing which I would like to see added, now that the OV-chipkaart is in use throughout the country, is price capping like on the Oyster card. While I understand this can't be done with the current pre-paid system, it should be possible if a move is made to a post-paid system where passengers receive a bill at the end of the month.
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Old November 28th, 2016, 11:01 AM   #3507
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I'm pretty sure the post-paid system is available with the OV-Chipkaart. I've seen ad posters in bus stops about people paying their bill at the end of the month. So I guess people who have that, could be eligible for price capping.
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Old November 28th, 2016, 03:49 PM   #3508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BriedisUnIzlietne View Post
What's the problem with the ticketing? I like the current system. Then again, I don't use the train on a regular basis for commuting

It is very difficult to manage and utilize effectively the train capacity and sell tickets for certain times and relations using dynamic pricing in the current system.

I don't use it regularly either, but I use it often enough. The discussion started with the fact that the modality share is not favourable for the trains:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
During the period from 1994 to 2007, regional public transport (bus, tram, subway) lost 2.4 billion passenger kilometers. Trains gained 3 billion km, cycling 0.8 billion and cars..... 18 billion kilometers. The growth in vehicle traffic was larger than all train travel at that time (15.7 billion km).
My argument is that the pricing on the Dutch railway is generally not competitive to using a car. The argument that the total car costs should be included is not relevant here. Everyone (other then some city youth) has a car. Those are sunk costs. No one makes a decision whether to buy a car or ride with PT and train. That's not how it is. People make decision, what costs me more, a full tank or a ticket. If you should want to have competitive railways you need to make car ride price wise competitive only with 3 or more passengers.

I am not saying that there is no capacity problem as well. But I would need to know more about the numbers of the capacity utilisation of the trains.

The capacity problem is also of another kind. In fact what you see is that there's sort of plan to create an urban traffic train system in the Randstad, while at the same time, those trains are utilized on longer distance as well. This creates problems with the capacity of the trains. It would be better to have high capacity, light, wide door - quick stops, standing places, fast trains connecting the Randstad area. Those trains could be used with cheap integrated (with other PT) subscription plans, like a big metro system. Then you could have trains doing longer distances, where the you could sell some combined style tickets with variable and dynamic pricing.

The distances and urbanisation between Rotterdam and Den Haag is quite comparable and suitable for a metro system. The distances between Amsterdam, Utrecht, Almere, are also not greater than the distances in an metro system.

If you could separate this local traffic from the long distance traffic, you would get much less capacity constraints problems imho.

Yet another look at is. I think it is good to strive for a integrated PT system for the whole country, however then you should really build it up to it. Imagine a city that would introduce rush hour pricing plans for its PT (metro, tram, bus), that would be defying the whole purpose of this system. Therefore I think that this needs to be taken into consideration here as well.
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Last edited by Surel; November 28th, 2016 at 03:56 PM.
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Old November 29th, 2016, 09:38 PM   #3509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
Imagine a city that would introduce rush hour pricing plans for its PT (metro, tram, bus), that would be defying the whole purpose of this system. Therefore I think that this needs to be taken into consideration here as well.
London underground has higher prices during rush hour.
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Old November 30th, 2016, 11:55 PM   #3510
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Ok, the voices about V250s are growing. It seems they will become part of the Frecciargento (Silver Arrow) fleet and are very likely to be used for services between Milan and the Adriatic coast, which include HS Milan - Bologna and then an upgraded line up to 200 km/h.

This fits perfectly their profile, 250 km/h under 25 kV and 200 under 3 kV.

From the Atlantic to the Adriatic... Be prepared to see them with this livery:

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Old December 1st, 2016, 12:13 AM   #3511
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Thanks for the update, Wilhem275. Do keep us posted, because if this gets serious I am definitely going to look into booking a little trip to Italy!
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Old December 1st, 2016, 12:50 AM   #3512
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Everything still under the "I'll believe it when I'll see it" policy

But I find extremely funny that in the end the nose of the beloved Plan V (sort of...) will be running around Italy

Lucky you, it's also a quite scenic route, with many parts along the sea.



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Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

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Old December 1st, 2016, 01:21 AM   #3513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Ok, the voices about V250s are growing. It seems they will become part of the Frecciargento (Silver Arrow) fleet and are very likely to be used for services between Milan and the Adriatic coast, which include HS Milan - Bologna and then an upgraded line up to 200 km/h.
Do you have a source or are these just rumours ?
It's not like I don't trust you but I have heard a lot of rumours over the years about the fate of the V250 and for now none of them came true.

Still would love to see the ugly duckling ride again instead of rusting away in a yard in Italy.
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Old December 1st, 2016, 02:01 AM   #3514
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Nothing official yet, but on 29/11 there was a meeting between Trenitalia and some unions to discuss the 2017-2026 industrial plan, and the V250s were named among the ongoing purchases (as well as more ETR 400 HS trains and some regional material).
There is still no mention of this detail in Trenitalia's public documents, but it makes sense, it's a kind of operative info that is of bigger interest for the unions than the general public.


I also have several half-sources, usually well informed, who confirm there's some work going in this direction. Still, I wouldn't place a bet on it till the day I see one departing a station... but there are good chances.
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Old December 1st, 2016, 09:19 AM   #3515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Lucky you, it's also a quite scenic route, with many parts along the sea.
Won't be long before the trains start to rust then.
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Old December 1st, 2016, 12:17 PM   #3516
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LOL, I thought the same
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Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

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Old December 1st, 2016, 01:32 PM   #3517
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I knew it..... It was all a set up...


[IMG]http://i64.************/s5h6ky.jpg[/IMG]

(Inside a V250 relay area)
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Last edited by Maarten Otto; December 1st, 2016 at 01:34 PM. Reason: Link isn't working. Fixing it later
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Old December 1st, 2016, 02:06 PM   #3518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maarten Otto View Post
I knew it..... It was all a set up...


[IMG]http://i64.************/s5h6ky.jpg[/IMG]

(Inside a V250 relay area)
Tinypic is banned on this site, but here's the URL:

http://nl.tiny pic.com/r/s5h6ky/9

(remove the space between tiny and pic)
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Old December 1st, 2016, 02:18 PM   #3519
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Quote:
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London underground has higher prices during rush hour.
And Tallin has a free of charge PT. Now you tell me which city has seen increased PT ridership and modal share...
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Old December 1st, 2016, 03:00 PM   #3520
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Free public transport is a stupid idea, I think we can all agree on that.

I was just bringing an example of what you mentioned. London has a capacity problem on the underground so it's perfectly logical to ask for higher prices during rush hour (if they keep working on increasing the capacity at the same time).
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