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Old March 27th, 2017, 04:59 PM   #3621
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From the HSL you can only go to Breda or straight on to Antwerpen.
A connection to Roosendaal (at Lage Zwaluwe) wasn't built, but there's a rather cheap way to do it if needed.

As of today Rotterdam - HSL - Breda - Roosendaal is much longer (not only because of the reversal) than the direct route via Dordrecht.

A theorical direct Rotterdam - Roosendaal via HSL (with the junction at Lage Zwaluwe) would obviously be the fastest option; but don't expect a huge time gain compared to the current routing via Dordrecht.
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Old March 27th, 2017, 05:32 PM   #3622
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Now we really are screwing around on a square meter. Even from Rotterdam to Breda, the train leaves the actual high speed track only just after the Moerdijk. It's like 3 minutes of actual travel on the dedicated line.

With Dutch distances, I really feel like the money for the HSL would have been better spent upgrading the main lines on the regular network to 200km/h.
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Old March 27th, 2017, 05:36 PM   #3623
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Zeeland could be served by extending the IC Direct that end in Rotterdam to Vlissingen, if such connection between HSL and the line to Roosendal (via Oudenbosch or via Etten-Leur) existed. That could help the case for buildign a rail link (with a tunne) from Goesl to Terneuzen.
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Old March 27th, 2017, 08:21 PM   #3624
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And onto Gent? I'm all for it, but I doubt anyone's willing to cough up the money. Digging a tunnel in those parts is difficult and expensive.
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Old March 27th, 2017, 08:55 PM   #3625
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Quote:
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And onto Gent? I'm all for it, but I doubt anyone's willing to cough up the money. Digging a tunnel in those parts is difficult and expensive.
Not really, if the road tunnel is an indication, tunneling itself is rather cheap on a per km basis. They should extend a passenger line to Gent.

Another needed link is a "inter-island" railway starting in Schiedam, going under the river and then to Spikenisse, and then crossing the Zeeland archipelago linking with Middelbrug. Zeeland has a lot of potential for bedroom communities build out of farmland with super modern architecture and fast rail links to Rotterdam. Goeree-Overflakee and Duiveland-Schouwen are very underutilized and underpopulated!
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Old March 27th, 2017, 09:29 PM   #3626
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Quote:
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Now we really are screwing around on a square meter. Even from Rotterdam to Breda, the train leaves the actual high speed track only just after the Moerdijk. It's like 3 minutes of actual travel on the dedicated line.

With Dutch distances, I really feel like the money for the HSL would have been better spent upgrading the main lines on the regular network to 200km/h.
I would like to see HSL from Amsterdam to Leeuwarden, Groningen, Bremen, Hamburg.

Noordzeelijn.
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Old March 27th, 2017, 11:13 PM   #3627
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Old March 28th, 2017, 01:53 AM   #3628
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Quote:
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I would like to see HSL from Amsterdam to Leeuwarden, Groningen, Bremen, Hamburg.

Noordzeelijn.
I want the Kusttram extended from Knokke to Vlissingen
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Old March 28th, 2017, 02:01 AM   #3629
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Don't act like it's such an outlandish idea. It was proposed multiple times.
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Old March 29th, 2017, 02:04 PM   #3630
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Quote:
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Not really, if the road tunnel is an indication, tunneling itself is rather cheap on a per km basis. They should extend a passenger line to Gent.

Another needed link is a "inter-island" railway starting in Schiedam, going under the river and then to Spikenisse, and then crossing the Zeeland archipelago linking with Middelbrug. Zeeland has a lot of potential for bedroom communities build out of farmland with super modern architecture and fast rail links to Rotterdam. Goeree-Overflakee and Duiveland-Schouwen are very underutilized and underpopulated!
Underpopulated? Not to international standards. Underutilized? Likely: the long travel times have kept people away from Zeeland which is seeing less economic development than other provinces, only to be compensated in summer by German tourists. The waters have had an huge impact on the development since the rise of ground transportation. Middelburg and Vlissingen were once two of the biggest cities in the Netherlands (Middelburg only after Amsterdam), but now it's no larger than Harderwijk or Veldhoven. The Delta Works aftermath brought some roads but it's not enough for really bringing all of Zealand to Rotterdam
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Old March 29th, 2017, 04:18 PM   #3631
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Old March 29th, 2017, 05:49 PM   #3632
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Quote:
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With Dutch distances, I really feel like the money for the HSL would have been better spent upgrading the main lines on the regular network to 200km/h.
A rise of top speeds of existing mainlines with mixed traffic is rather counter-productive. It increases the difference in speed and thus reduces the capacity of these lines. Reduced capacities, however, is what the Netherlands can ill afford.

And exactly because of the distances within the Netherlands there is no real need for speeds beyond 160 km/h except for international services for which the distances are far greater. Linking the Randstad to Brussel and Paris with a fast and convenient service requires high-speed and a segregated line, domestic services on the other hand don't. Hence the construction of HSL Zuid was the right investment.
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Old March 29th, 2017, 07:24 PM   #3633
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I don't have the impression capacity is squeezed beyond the Randstad though, which is where you'd focus on increasing the speeds.

So you'd upgrade to 200 for the bit from Amersfoort to Groningen or from Utrecht to Maastricht. But not the part between Utrecht and Amsterdam which is fine at 140 or 160.

Going South, you'd probably introduce a 200 km/h track from Dordrecht to the border.

And obviously the lack of a direct motorway or railway between Amsterdam and Rotterdam is somewhat of a separate issue. A case could be made for building a 200 km/h track between them in such a scenario I suppose.
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Old March 30th, 2017, 02:31 AM   #3634
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A rise of top speeds of existing mainlines with mixed traffic is rather counter-productive. It increases the difference in speed and thus reduces the capacity of these lines.
True, but I think we should compare building a new railway vs. adding two (fast) tracks to existing ones, in which case the heterotachy* problem usually is much less relevant.
And most of the Randstad is already four-tracked and straight-aligned, so it wouldn't have been a hard job. Basically the Amsterdam - Utrecht line followed that principle and works quite well.
Outside the Randstad local traffic is less dense, so less of a problem.

On the other hand it is also true that long distance services follow very different logics than the Dutch domestic traffic.

Maybe, for the Schiphol - Rotterdam line, I wouldn't have gone with a full HSL (300 km/h are actually pointless there), instead leaving the line open to a few local trains which could have opened new connections (i.e. Zoetermeer to Amsterdam and Rotterdam).


* I'm not sure that word is used in English as well, but the meaning is correct.
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Old March 30th, 2017, 02:49 AM   #3635
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Most of the Dutch railway network could operate at higher speeds already, if not for outdated ATB. This limitation will be solved when ERTMS is progressively deployed until 2026 in the core network, as I read a while ago.

The other constraints to higher speeds (curves, gates) are not really an issue, at least not until speeds > 220km/h come around.

There are a few critical curves, though, such as the eastern approach to Amsterdam Centraal, with that strange curve at Muidepoort. But they are few. And there is one mainline sector that needs reconstruction, Amersfoort - Appeldoorn, as the track is a bit unstable as trains restricted to 120km/h, or so I heard. They could use the opportunity to build a new city between the two, high-density tall buildings only.

Given housing shortages in NL, I cannot help but look at some stations and think of them as massive new developments. My favorite sport for that is Lage Zwaule, that place could be built all over and house some 80.000 people!
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Old March 30th, 2017, 02:59 AM   #3636
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the track is a bit unstable as trains restricted to 120km/h, or so I heard.
...
They could use the opportunity to build a new city between the two, high-density tall buildings only.
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Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.

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Old March 30th, 2017, 03:06 AM   #3637
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So now I've seen quite a few of the "new" NS panel screens in operation. Disruption messages (in red) change between English and Dutch. Advice is shown on split text, English with a bad italic version of the NS typeface.

So you have
Hierna/Next:

instead of
Volgende trein:

I'm not sold on this option. Volgende trein is more elegant than Hierna, but more importantly, it clutters the whole thing. They could just alternate Dutch and English for the whole screen, if they are already changing the red line, costs of changing the advice lines (white typeface over blue blackground) would be negligible. Then, Dutch users would soon know their screens alternate and foreign passengers would have uncluttered screens.
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Old March 30th, 2017, 09:39 AM   #3638
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THE NETHERLANDS | Railways

Quote:
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I'm not sold on this option. Volgende trein is more elegant than Hierna, but more importantly, it clutters the whole thing. They could just alternate Dutch and English for the whole screen, if they are already changing the red line, costs of changing the advice lines (white typeface over blue blackground) would be negligible. Then, Dutch users would soon know their screens alternate and foreign passengers would have uncluttered screens.
Please write one of the communication people of NS. They might do something with your suggestions. Here they stay in vain...
http://nieuws.ns.nl/bartho-boer-word...nicatie-bij-ns
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Old March 30th, 2017, 08:19 PM   #3639
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Most of the Dutch railway network could operate at higher speeds already, if not for outdated ATB.
Most tracks also still have overhead wires with fixed catenary wire supports (system BVLM or B1), limiting trains to 140 km/h to prevent standing waves in the wires. You would have to upgrade these as well (and make them also suitable for 25 kV in the process).
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Old March 30th, 2017, 09:48 PM   #3640
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Today I was in Enschede and noticed there is a physical interruption of tracks coming from Germany. What is that?
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