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Old April 7th, 2017, 05:05 PM   #3681
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Think again, most new trains have provisions/room for equipment for 25kv operation. It's still not a easy/quick job though..

And why they don't buy dual voltage? Why buy for something when the descision about 3kv/25kv hasn't been made yet.
I'd rather see them buying more stock then investing for something that you might not even need.
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Old April 8th, 2017, 12:52 AM   #3682
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In fact the french have largely proven with their own south-west and south-east networks that 1500 V is perfectly suitable for high density and reasonably high speed. You just need catenary with enough cross section, and enough substations. Gosh, the english have even proven that
for 750V third rail !
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Old April 8th, 2017, 12:57 AM   #3683
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Still substandard solution. Dutch railways should move towards 25kV AC electrification on all major lines.
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Old April 8th, 2017, 11:31 AM   #3684
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That should indeed be the perfection solution if banknotes were growing on trees.
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Old April 8th, 2017, 06:18 PM   #3685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
That should indeed be the perfection solution if banknotes were growing on trees.
Electrification at 25 kV AC can be staggered with fleet renewal plans. ProRail will often spend high-10-digit sums on tunnel projects like Nijverdal, so it is not out of line suggest change in electrical current. Sure enough, all cables and isolators needs to be replaced, however the poles do not. Plenty of money is saved with reduced need for electrical substations along the lines as well.
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Old April 8th, 2017, 06:20 PM   #3686
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I wonder how is the conversion project of Kempen-Zwolle railway into a tramway going...
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Old April 9th, 2017, 12:12 AM   #3687
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Quote:
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That should indeed be the perfection solution if banknotes were growing on trees.
The report done a while back shows 25kV is the 'cheapest' in the long term.
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Old April 9th, 2017, 12:13 AM   #3688
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Quote:
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Electrification at 25 kV AC can be staggered with fleet renewal plans. ProRail will often spend high-10-digit sums on tunnel projects like Nijverdal, so it is not out of line suggest change in electrical current. Sure enough, all cables and isolators needs to be replaced, however the poles do not. Plenty of money is saved with reduced need for electrical substations along the lines as well.
I think the main cost, and which causes most resistance to changing to 25kV, lies in the fact that many structures need to be modified for the bigger clearances required.
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Old April 9th, 2017, 04:19 PM   #3689
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Quote:
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I wonder how is the conversion project of Kempen-Zwolle railway into a tramway going...
It isn't beign converted I believe.
Yes electrifcation and a new station at Z-Stadshagen are coming, but no conversion to a tramline.

Syntus will take over services on the line, I have heard that Kampen-Enschede services might be a option in the future. Joining the Zwolle-Enschede and Zwolle-Kampen line.

in Dutch: https://www.prorail.nl/projecten/zwollekampen
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Old April 11th, 2017, 12:14 AM   #3690
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I think the main cost, and which causes most resistance to changing to 25kV, lies in the fact that many structures need to be modified for the bigger clearances required.
Some parts of the catenary are already prepared for 25kV like Utrecht-Woerden or Utrecht-Amsterdam.
The biggest problem is that AC power is interfering with ATB.
There were problems with railway lines which run parallel to the HSL-zuid like Dordrecht-Breda where the AC current was interfering with the ATB of the trains running next to it.
And the conversion to ERMTS will take ages (the first line will be equipped in 2023) and also only a part of the Dutch railway lines will be converted.


Link (the black lines all already equipped with ERMTS)
So before they can convert to 25 kV, they need to convert to ERMTS first.
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Old April 11th, 2017, 12:27 AM   #3691
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And the conversion to another current type is something quite difficult to organize if services on the line are to be maintained. Namur Luxembourg is currently going over this and it will take something like 8 years.
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Old April 11th, 2017, 01:22 PM   #3692
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I saw this on a cabview video lately when they were installing those single wires located above all others which is usual for 25kV.

In the Netherlands this would be a straight nightmare for train passengers as our fascistoid safety laws would require years of closing railways altogether, which is unacceptable on our not-so-detailed network. With a few weekend closures however we can obtain 3kV much easier.
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Old April 11th, 2017, 02:00 PM   #3693
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Can't they close a major line for a summer for this conversion jobs? For instance, close the Utrecht-Den Bosch sector for 8 weeks and put special long trains via Nijmegen to make up for it.
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Old April 11th, 2017, 02:03 PM   #3694
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I assumed the decision was already made in favour of 3 kV.

TBH, 3 kV is probably more than enough for most of what the Dutch lines are capable of, even if speeds are raised.
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Old April 11th, 2017, 02:13 PM   #3695
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Quote:
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I assumed the decision was already made in favour of 3 kV.

TBH, 3 kV is probably more than enough for most of what the Dutch lines are capable of, even if speeds are raised.
DC is not the best way to power a massively used network! AC has many advantages, and it can be integrated into the national electricity grid.
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Old April 11th, 2017, 04:45 PM   #3696
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The decision for 3 kV has been made, but there is still not a 'go' on the project.
As this moment, the project is planned for 2030-2035, after the ETCS roll-out.
The Netherlands will be divided in 12 to 15 parts, and each month, a part will be switched to 3kV. In one and a half years, all parts will be converted to 3 kV.
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Old April 11th, 2017, 10:06 PM   #3697
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Quote:
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DC is not the best way to power a massively used network! AC has many advantages, and it can be integrated into the national electricity grid.
To the contrary, AC traction integrates very badly in a national grid. This is because it is simple phase and therefore creates an unbalanced load. DC is much better on that aspect because rectification can use 3 phases.
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Old April 12th, 2017, 03:23 PM   #3698
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mistertl View Post
The decision for 3 kV has been made, but there is still not a 'go' on the project.
As this moment, the project is planned for 2030-2035, after the ETCS roll-out.
The Netherlands will be divided in 12 to 15 parts, and each month, a part will be switched to 3kV. In one and a half years, all parts will be converted to 3 kV.


Interesting, hoping that a go will come soon during the next cabinet period (hoping that all these backroom talks will go pretty smoothly of course). And pretty quick actually. Do you also know how these regions will be divided or what kind of region would be first? And which types of trains do actually have to be enhanced or phased out?
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Old April 12th, 2017, 11:41 PM   #3699
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And which types of trains do actually have to be enhanced or phased out?
ICMm/SGMm/NID and maybe the first generation of VIRMm will be fased out at that time.
If they decide to enhance trains to 3 kV they can still drive on half power at 1,5kV parts.
Belgian trains use this trick to reach Roosendaal and Maastricht.

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Old April 13th, 2017, 12:02 AM   #3700
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It works on the ancient stock because there's a lot of mechanics and little electronics in there. The new Desiro ML units will simply cut out when they sense 1.5 kV DC, as they're not designed for it.

I expect something similar with the newer stuff: while an SGMm and an ICMm might work fine under 1.5 kV (even if they've been adapted for 3 kV) I am pretty sure that SLT will be harder to adapt.
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