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Old April 13th, 2017, 12:12 AM   #3701
Wilhem275
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Same trick is used around the I/F border with Ventimiglia station powered with 1,5 kV and Italian locos reaching it at half power.
However, there are some limits to this setting, I'm not sure it can support a dense service.
And yes, it doesn't work very well with modern locomotives (although it can be solved via software mostly).

I also wonder if the opposite can be done: having two identical 1,5 kV trains permanently coupled and fed by a single 3 kV pantograph connected through a series circuit. The limit here is that both trains must work in perfect sync to avoid unbalanced loads.

If this can be done, it would allow NS to use almost all of its trains in full service with a cheap rewiring and allow for a much more flexible transition (for both infra and trains conversion).
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Old April 13th, 2017, 09:53 AM   #3702
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You cannot do that. Power cables insulation is still for 1500V only but you have 3000V between panto and rail...
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Old April 13th, 2017, 09:56 AM   #3703
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Note : half tension =》1/4 Power and not 1/2. P=U**2/R...
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Old April 13th, 2017, 11:43 AM   #3704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3737 View Post
This thing, ugh.

I toootally understand that the little line to Roosendaal has no priority for the Belgians. I get it. But this is your 'welcome to Belgium'-sign... is this really the message you wanna send to people?

Everytime I take the IC to Vlissingen, there's a fair number of tourists who landed at Schiphol and are off to visit Belgium. They transfer in Roosendaal. This 'train' is the first Belgian experience they have, and that's not good.
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Old April 13th, 2017, 11:57 AM   #3705
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1970 stuff and showing its age. They get a light revision right now, more to keep people in the workshop busy than anything else. But is the IC train A'dam-Bru not also calling there ?
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Old April 13th, 2017, 11:58 AM   #3706
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Interesting, hoping that a go will come soon during the next cabinet period (hoping that all these backroom talks will go pretty smoothly of course). And pretty quick actually. Do you also know how these regions will be divided or what kind of region would be first? And which types of trains do actually have to be enhanced or phased out?
First region will be one of the outer regions. The first part will be De Vechtdallijn, the last part will be Amsterdam.

Last edited by mistertl; April 13th, 2017 at 12:15 PM.
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Old April 13th, 2017, 12:05 PM   #3707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
This thing, ugh.

I toootally understand that the little line to Roosendaal has no priority for the Belgians. I get it. But this is your 'welcome to Belgium'-sign... is this really the message you wanna send to people?

Everytime I take the IC to Vlissingen, there's a fair number of tourists who landed at Schiphol and are off to visit Belgium. They transfer in Roosendaal. This 'train' is the first Belgian experience they have, and that's not good.
These trains you'll often see. On the news, burned out.
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Old April 13th, 2017, 02:29 PM   #3708
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http://www.spoorpro.nl/spoorbouw/201...dingsspanning/

This is a dutch article about the implementation of 3kv, 25 kv won't happen. It will probably take 7 years to prepare the transition to 3kv and then it will take another 2 years to switch all​ the railways. It'll take 30 years to earn back the investment. The whole research paper will be released in a couple of months.
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Old April 13th, 2017, 05:05 PM   #3709
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mistertl View Post
First region will be one of the outer regions. The first part will be De Vechtdallijn, the last part will be Amsterdam.

Seems logical at one side, to implement in a place where there are less trains so there is a sort-of-testing for when it there are children's sicknesses, as wel call it here. And outer regions because of the border. But then they better start near Maastricht and Roosendaal eliminating the need for Belgian trains to turn on just half of the energy. So I hope these come soon as well, but the line you call is logical as well because of the lower capacity on the energy network on the Vechtdallijnen (usual at secondary railway lines).


And so this will be in 2026 or 2027? Sounds good.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
This thing, ugh.

I toootally understand that the little line to Roosendaal has no priority for the Belgians. I get it. But this is your 'welcome to Belgium'-sign... is this really the message you wanna send to people?

Everytime I take the IC to Vlissingen, there's a fair number of tourists who landed at Schiphol and are off to visit Belgium. They transfer in Roosendaal. This 'train' is the first Belgian experience they have, and that's not good.


Those pig nose, it was my first experience with a Belgian domestic train back in 2015 on a hot July day. It was early in the morning but despite of that it was burning hot! I felt like I was in Indonesia, which is just an insult to them because their trains looked more sophisticated when I came back there in 2016.


It actually was just because I missed the Benelux train caused by defect ticket machines at Roosendaal. They were full of graffiti, the coaches looked horribly old, it was a recall of a time I never experienced by full (or even in the uterus to be precisely). I was happy I could get out of the train at Antwerp Central, and there you see... that was my goal!


Though I demand that this year, from Tilburg we are obliged to have that same gem within an hour of travelling in a neat train instead or we'll give that line to Arriva (oh wait that domestic part: it may just become the truth if this year is going to be the same sadness as the previous one).
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Old April 14th, 2017, 08:48 PM   #3710
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
This thing, ugh.

I toootally understand that the little line to Roosendaal has no priority for the Belgians. I get it. But this is your 'welcome to Belgium'-sign... is this really the message you wanna send to people?

Everytime I take the IC to Vlissingen, there's a fair number of tourists who landed at Schiphol and are off to visit Belgium. They transfer in Roosendaal. This 'train' is the first Belgian experience they have, and that's not good.
I've heard it's the only type that is able to run on the Dutch tracks? The new Desiro-trains can't apparently...

I think also the new (ordered) doubledeckers will be able to run in the NL.

So let's hope this line will get an upgrade in the future

Btw, nowadays the Belgian network is full full full of Desiro trains. Originally they were only for the GEN/RER network around Brussels, now they're literally everywhere. Even in, let's say, less urban areas...

DSC04482 by Laufbe, on Flickr
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Last edited by Thermo; April 14th, 2017 at 09:02 PM.
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Old April 14th, 2017, 09:19 PM   #3711
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I like those, they're very comfortable.

As I recall the Desiro trains can't run to Holland because of the different voltages, but also because it's too wide. It would crash into the platform in Roosendaal...
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Old April 15th, 2017, 12:58 AM   #3712
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Quote:
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Btw, nowadays the Belgian network is full full full of Desiro trains. Originally they were only for the GEN/RER network around Brussels, now they're literally everywhere. Even in, let's say, less urban areas...
A bit too full to my taste... There are today 305 desiro trains on the belgian metals. That's OK if they produce only local trains with them but it is totally unsuitable for IC service. By the way only 100 were foreseen for RER so it's normal that you see the 200 others everywhere.
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Old April 15th, 2017, 01:00 AM   #3713
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I like those, they're very comfortable.

As I recall the Desiro trains can't run to Holland because of the different voltages, but also because it's too wide. It would crash into the platform in Roosendaal...
That surprises me ā bit. Those trains also run in other countries so I would find strange that they are not built to UIC loading gauge.
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Old April 15th, 2017, 09:36 AM   #3714
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THE NETHERLANDS | Railways

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
That surprises me ā bit. Those trains also run in other countries so I would find strange that they are not built to UIC loading gauge.
A few of the Desiro's are prepared to run to NL and DE. But the old trick with driving on half power didn't work out software wise.

The double deckers are too high to run under a highway viaduct just before the entrance of Roosendaal station.
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Old April 15th, 2017, 11:00 AM   #3715
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Rolling stock developped specifically for Belgium tends to maximize the use of the Belgian loading gauge which is a bit larger than UIC standard. So our double deckers are confined to Belgium + the line to Luxembourg. For example when it was decided to serve Lille with M4 stock, the french had to modify their platforms. M4 cars have an "F2 Lille" sign on them tell in that they are allowed on French North network but only as far as Lille...

Last edited by MarcVD; April 15th, 2017 at 11:27 AM.
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Old April 15th, 2017, 01:53 PM   #3716
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I don't understand that. I found this, this and this image.
Belgium uses profile GB-M6, whereas the Netherlands uses G2. G2 is definitely bigger, so any Belgian equipment should fit.

However, because Belgium still has many low platform that may be the culprit. The steps may extend past the profile.
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Old April 15th, 2017, 02:10 PM   #3717
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Interesting!

I tried to find the dimensions online but there's no real mention of it in any of the official brochures...
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Old April 15th, 2017, 04:14 PM   #3718
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M2 stock was allowed on NS network. M4 I don't know, I've never seen them on NS. M5 and M6 are strictly limited to Belgium. May be because of the low carriage parts but not the steps because they are retracting.
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Old April 15th, 2017, 05:19 PM   #3719
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The new M7 (dutch) rolling stock can reach Maastricht and Roosendaal (also Luxemburg).
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Old April 15th, 2017, 06:21 PM   #3720
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M2 stock was allowed on NS network. M4 I don't know, I've never seen them on NS. M5 and M6 are strictly limited to Belgium.
Check out these markings (the block just right of the countries). This particular carriage is suitable for 1000V AC, 1500V AC/DC and 3000V DC. A Belgian domestic coach wil probably only accept 3000V DC, thus wouldn't have heating and lighting when supplied with any other voltage or AC power.
Same goes for Dutch ICR coaches, of which there used to be three types: domestic only, Benelux and International, each supporting extra voltages.
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