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Old April 15th, 2017, 09:04 PM   #3721
MarcVD
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M2 stock could also be steam heated but I don't know whether there were diesel locs with steam generators on NS. M4 stock could only take 3kV for heating. For their missions on SNCF they were hauled by HLE 12 locs which could provide 3kV heating supply even when running under 25kv AC. For M6 stock I'm sure they can also take 1000V AC because that's what they get when running on the HSL between Leuven and Liege...
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Old April 16th, 2017, 02:50 AM   #3722
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You cannot do that. Power cables insulation is still for 1500V only but you have 3000V between panto and rail...
Correct. But (for the sake of curiosity) if we apply new wiring between bogies and transformers/traction circuits, can we avoid the insulation problem?

In a way such that the current flow is "panto > trafo 1 > trafo 2 > bogies" and the 3 kV circuit is closed before current can reach other parts not designed for that voltage.
(I assume axles and bogies have no problems with higher voltages)

I suspect the limit is still in the internal insulation of traction circuits, probably not rated for 3 kV.


In the end it would probably be cheaper to simply rebuild the traction circuits from scratch, since many of them are not even very recent and an update would be needed anyway.
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Old April 16th, 2017, 09:39 AM   #3723
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Transformers in the classical sense can only transform AC.

With modern power electronics efficient DC-DC converters are possible. Simply connect them between the panto and the train to have it step down the overhead voltage. You do need space though, so retrofitting an EMU will probably not be a problem, but the engine room of a locomotive usually does not have a lot of spare space available.

Switching to 3 kV will likely mean the end of any 'historic' train, because retrofitting will be to expensive.
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Old April 16th, 2017, 10:51 AM   #3724
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Correct. But (for the sake of curiosity) if we apply new wiring between bogies and transformers/traction circuits, can we avoid the insulation problem?
You cannot put two equipments in series and count on that to halve the voltage because you don't want, if one equipment fails and shorts, to fry all the passengers in your train. If you have 3kV at the catenary, then your whole traction chain must be insulated for 3kV for security reasons. Even the traction motors, although they are always in séries of 2 at least, must have a spécial class of insulation to hold the 3kV.
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Old April 16th, 2017, 05:11 PM   #3725
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Demolition of rail infrastructure at the recently deactivated Hoek van Holland station

from Twitter feed
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Old April 16th, 2017, 08:06 PM   #3726
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
Transformers in the classical sense can only transform AC.

With modern power electronics efficient DC-DC converters are possible. Simply connect them between the panto and the train to have it step down the overhead voltage. You do need space though, so retrofitting an EMU will probably not be a problem, but the engine room of a locomotive usually does not have a lot of spare space available.
ABB even developed a power pack that can take anything, AC or DC, and turn it in to three phase AC for the engines. A bit like the universal power supplies we now get with our phones and laptops, but scaled up.

Quote:
Switching to 3 kV will likely mean the end of any 'historic' train, because retrofitting will be to expensive.
Is there still a Benelux "hondekop" out there that could be put back in working order?
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Old April 16th, 2017, 10:16 PM   #3727
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Demolition of rail infrastructure at the recently deactivated Hoek van Holland station
One week after the closure Vlaardingen west is also gone.

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Old April 16th, 2017, 10:40 PM   #3728
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THE NETHERLANDS | Railways

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Is there still a Benelux "hondekop" out there that could be put back in working order?
One 1,5/3Kv Hondekop is left.

More info in Dutch: http://www.spoorforum.nl/spoorforum/...hp?f=20&t=7363
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Old April 17th, 2017, 12:27 AM   #3729
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Demolition of rail infrastructure at the recently deactivated Hoek van Holland station
Weren't they supposed to continue to service as a local Randstadt rail or whatever name is of Rotterdam local rail system?

Will they really demolish all the infrastructure?
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Old April 17th, 2017, 12:30 AM   #3730
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Weren't they supposed to continue to service as a local Randstadt rail or whatever name is of Rotterdam local rail system?

Will they really demolish all the infrastructure?
Yes, the line will re-open as a metro line. First between Schiedam and Hook van Holland. Then, from Rotterdam Centraal.

This is how the network will look like after full conversion

(from RET)
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Old April 17th, 2017, 02:56 PM   #3731
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Quote:
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For M6 stock I'm sure they can also take 1000V AC because that's what they get when running on the HSL between Leuven and Liege...
M6 stock gets 1500V 50Hz AC as central train supply when under 25kV AC. 1000V AC train supply is for coaches under 15kV.
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Old April 17th, 2017, 04:09 PM   #3732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grzegorz.Janoszka View Post
Weren't they supposed to continue to service as a local Randstadt rail or whatever name is of Rotterdam local rail system?

Will they really demolish all the infrastructure?
There are too many difference between the standaard NS rail tracks and the RET Metro tracks. Different kind of rails, different electric current, different profile & platform heights. It's actually easier to replace most of the current infrastructure then to try to make it work on the current tracks.


@Suburbanist,
The line will not run to Rotterdam Centraal.
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Old April 17th, 2017, 04:14 PM   #3733
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Indeed. Although I did some research this morning and found out that 1000V 50 Hz and 1500V 16.7 Hz are UIC standards too. I don't know whether they have ever been used but there is a standard marking for them. I also tried to find à good picture of the M6 markings but could not find any.
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Old April 17th, 2017, 04:50 PM   #3734
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Quote:
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There are too many difference between the standaard NS rail tracks and the RET Metro tracks. Different kind of rails, different electric current, different profile & platform heights. It's actually easier to replace most of the current infrastructure then to try to make it work on the current tracks.
Oh, wow. I thought that it wouldn't be that difficult :o
Even the parts between the stations will be totally rebuilt?
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Old April 17th, 2017, 04:57 PM   #3735
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@Suburbanist,
The line will not run to Rotterdam Centraal.
Yes, you are right. I knew that but had forgotten. Trains will use the subway tunnel after Schiedam. To travel between Rotterdam Centraal and Hoek van Holland, passengers will transfer at Beurs. Shouldn't be a problem, if not for the fact Beurs RET station was not built with fare gates in mind, so it is a bit cramped all around.
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Old April 17th, 2017, 06:57 PM   #3736
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To travel between Rotterdam Centraal and Hoek van Holland, passengers will transfer at Beurs.
Alternatively, passengers who want to go to/from Rotterdam Centraal can change between metro and NS train at Schiedam Centrum. I don't think many people will do that, as the bit between Rotterdam and Schiedam is quite expensive for the distance traveled (€ 2,30 full fare, 2nd class).

For passengers coming from Hoek van Holland who wish to go to Gouda/Utrecht or further it's probably best to remain on board the metro train and alight at Rotterdam Alexander, it's just as fast but it's more convenient as Rotterdam Alexander is a much smaller station compared to Rotterdam Centraal. Timewise it doesn't make much as a difference either: the "gain" in time from the shorter journey to Rotterdam Centraal is lost by the time it takes the train to get from Centraal to Alexander.
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Old April 17th, 2017, 07:03 PM   #3737
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Alternatively, passengers who want to go to/from Rotterdam Centraal can change between metro and NS train at Schiedam Centrum. I don't think many people will do that, as the bit between Rotterdam and Schiedam is quite expensive for the distance traveled (€ 2,30 full fare, 2nd class).

For passengers coming from Hoek van Holland who wish to go to Gouda/Utrecht or further it's probably best to remain on board the metro train and alight at Rotterdam Alexander, it's just as fast but it's more convenient as Rotterdam Alexander is a much smaller station compared to Rotterdam Centraal. Timewise it doesn't make much as a difference either: the "gain" in time from the shorter journey to Rotterdam Centraal is lost by the time it takes the train to get from Centraal to Alexander.
Are RET passes and subscription plans valid on NS trains within its area? If not, that is a massive deterrent on city/metro commuters also using NS trains. Actually, I am not entirely sure about these rules, I know they changed significantly when OV-Chipkaart was introduced, and then were tweaked again later. For pay-as-you-go trips, it is a relatively moot point. Not so for people who commute and rely on specific heavily discounted plans to travel cheaply.
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Old April 17th, 2017, 07:50 PM   #3738
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No, RET passes aren't accepted on NS services and vice versa.
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Old April 17th, 2017, 07:53 PM   #3739
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As far I know people who have discount cards for the trains are indeed screwed as they need an additional subscription.
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Old April 18th, 2017, 01:53 AM   #3740
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And currently this is, IMHO, the biggest shortcoming of the Dutch ticketing system. Every country is trying to integrate all means of urban transport into a unified fare system, NS urban services are more and more configured as very good suburban light rail systems (S-Bahn like), and then... all is offered so that the two things are not permeable.

With the last timetable revision Amsterdam, Utrecht and Den Haag/Rotterdam all gained two suburban lines with a 15' frequency and an interchange in the main station. A solid and well-designed service that most cities would love to offer.

I'm angry at this situation because the technical and planning achievement is admirable and then most of this effort is wasted.
Trips like Lelylaan - Muiderpoort, Schiedam - Lombardijen or Leidsche Rijn - Lunetten should be fully integrated in the area ticketing of their respective urban transit systems.
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