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Old January 15th, 2013, 01:17 AM   #601
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DB is sending sub-par rolling stock to NL. They should use Velaros, AGVs etc. on that service, since trains use HSL east of Hannover.
No need for that as the intercity stops more frequently than the ICE does, thus the benefit for the higher top speed is lost just as quickly. Also, the HSL only allows for 250 kph which is just 20 kph more than ICx K1n's top speed - 230 kph.
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Old January 15th, 2013, 04:31 AM   #602
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DB is sending sub-par rolling stock to NL.
Well, compared to AnsaldoBreda, everything else is like heaven.
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Old January 15th, 2013, 06:27 AM   #603
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A question about the Hanzelijn: when Zwolle - Almelo railway will reopen, is there any plan to move there Amsterdam - Berlin IC services, via Lelystad - Zwolle - Almelo?

It would be some 5 km longer, but mostly at 200 km/h as permitted by the coaches (with adequate locos of course). This way that agony-slow train would be a little faster and we'd get a higher use of the line.
The section which is prepared for speeds up to 200 km/h is rather short. There is very little to gain for the Amsterdam to Berlin services there. It would probably not even enough to compensate the longer way. And then there is the small matter of capacity on the Flevolijn. There are already frequent local services on this line. With Almere and Lelystad expected to keep growing even more services could be needed there in the future. Which in return would leave little space for long distance services. Especially for long DB services which are prone to be late.
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Old January 15th, 2013, 08:36 AM   #604
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No need for that as the intercity stops more frequently than the ICE does, thus the benefit for the higher top speed is lost just as quickly. Also, the HSL only allows for 250 kph which is just 20 kph more than ICx K1n's top speed - 230 kph.
This service to Berlin has already been retired by NS from its regular timetable planning. They could do the same in Germany, cut some stops and use IC4.

For instance, if you go to DB website and make a query from Amsterdam/Rotterdam/else to Berlin, it will suggest you change train in Hannover to an ICE, arriving before the IC (and it wil usually suggest the same on the opposite direction).

As for V250 on those services: it would be interesting, but DB is poised against Italian train manufacturers so it is unlikely they'd buy the trains even if they were available.

But the important thing is that the current rolling stock from the 1980s will be retired soon.
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Old January 15th, 2013, 09:16 AM   #605
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This service to Berlin has already been retired by NS from its regular timetable planning. They could do the same in Germany, cut some stops and use IC4.
There's no reason for DB to do just that. Cutting stops makes the train less attractive for a lot of passengers (as they have to change trains more often) while the time gained is only a few minutes. It might even make a city (such as Wolfsburg) itself less attractive as it loses a direct connection to Berlin.

Besides...
For instance, if you go to DB website and make a query from Amsterdam/Rotterdam/else to Berlin, it will suggest you change train in Hannover to an ICE, arriving before the IC (and it wil usually suggest the same on the opposite direction).
[/quote]Passengers wanting to go faster between Hannover and Berlin can already do so.
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As for V250 on those services: it would be interesting, but DB is poised against Italian train manufacturers so it is unlikely they'd buy the trains even if they were available.
DB preferres to buy German, just as SNCF prefers to buy French and companies from the USA are preferring American built goods over anything else. However, if it suits DB better they procure French, Spanish. DB signed a framework agreement with CAF and Alstom for regional trains rolling stock.

If AnsaldoBreda were to propose a good deal and offers a decent contract (including termination clauses and fines for late delivery or poor quality) I am sure DB would consider them during a tender.
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But the important thing is that the current rolling stock from the 1980s will be retired soon.
The current rolling stock is being refurbished and brought up to "ICE standards" (some would call it "brought down to" instead). It will be able to last for a couple of more years before being cascaded down onto other services or being put aside.

ICx won't come in service before 2016, and of coruse there's always a chance of it getting delayed due for various reasons.
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Old January 15th, 2013, 09:33 AM   #606
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ICx won't come in service before 2016, and of coruse there's always a chance of it getting delayed due for various reasons.
...the main one being Siemens' good ol' tradition about delivery timing


About Ansaldo: I wouldn't buy anything from them even if they were the last train maker on planet Earth.
Latest Italian HS trains will be a joint-venture between AB and Bombardier - the latter one building everything important so the other can't screw up.

They have no more skills to design a new train, they can only assemble it.

On the other hand they're good with subways systems, and they seem to have a good market in USA. And Ansaldo STS is a respectable name in the signalling field.
Can't understand why they have to make ugly products along with good stuff...
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Old January 15th, 2013, 10:08 AM   #607
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The current rolling stock is being refurbished and brought up to "ICE standards" (some would call it "brought down to" instead). It will be able to last for a couple of more years before being cascaded down onto other services or being put aside.
Well, some people will never get over the elimination of compartments or use or modern open plans on 2nd class cars.

But I don't think nostalgia for bygone era should dictate refurbishment plans...
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Old January 15th, 2013, 11:20 AM   #608
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True. Customer's wishes should.
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Old January 15th, 2013, 01:40 PM   #609
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True. Customer's wishes should.
But that is a basic problem of whatever service that is standardized and meant to serve a large number of people. It is impossible to manufacture a train that will please everyone. Moreover, there are economic considerations to be made

Compartments are more expensive and make it difficult to fit every one of them with LCD travel information panels and to fit train cars with surveillance cameras that can give a full view of all seats.
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Old January 15th, 2013, 07:01 PM   #610
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One of the best ways to meet customer demands is to live up to their expectations and wishes. Another way is to offer value-for-money.

That's why the new Frecciarossa 1000 will be equipped with 4 (yes, four) classes. It's why .Italo has three. It's why Railjet has three. It's why you can reserve a separate room in Thalys.

The price of any of those options is higher than the price of normal ticket (the price for using the Business Class in Railjet is a premium ticket + € 15,-) but you get more out of it.
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Old January 15th, 2013, 07:12 PM   #611
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I agree with you.

The problem is that the amateur or semi-amateurs Internet community revolving around transportation is plagued by nostalgia and irrational conservatism. Things like losing sleep (or affirming to do so) because a train has an "ugly" nose that has ZERO impact over the passenger riding experience. Or, in the context of subways and heavy commuter rail, complaining vocally about platform screen doors for no reason but that it kills the better part of the hobby of taking photos of movies of trains from station platforms... And then sometimes (thank God not often) these very people find some naive general news reporter that write about such grievances as if they were serious.

=====================

Now, in relate to multiple service classes: I'm all for it, but you need to operate under a reservation system to make them viable. Else, you end with people paying the lowest class ticket, and then expecting to be let use other classes of service because the cheapest one if full.
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Old January 15th, 2013, 07:17 PM   #612
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Now, in relate to multiple service classes: I'm all for it, but you need to operate under a reservation system to make them viable. Else, you end with people paying the lowest class ticket, and then expecting to be let use other classes of service because the cheapest one if full.
In Switzerland you can't seat in first class if the second is full...
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Old January 15th, 2013, 07:44 PM   #613
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The problem is that the amateur or semi-amateurs Internet community revolving around transportation is plagued by nostalgia and irrational conservatism.
Not to forget those that are plagued by ignorance...
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Old January 15th, 2013, 07:46 PM   #614
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That's why the new Frecciarossa 1000 will be equipped with 4 (yes, four) classes.
Side note: the present day Frecciarossa fleet (good old ETR 500) is being refurbished into 4 classes.
I doubt 2 lower levels are needed, but that's just the way it is.

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Things like losing sleep (or affirming to do so) because a train has an "ugly" nose that has ZERO impact over the passenger riding experience.
And, let's face it, Dutch trains always had ugly noses it's a tradition feature
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Old January 15th, 2013, 08:52 PM   #615
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I agree with you.

The problem is that the amateur or semi-amateurs Internet community revolving around transportation is plagued by nostalgia and irrational conservatism.
I don't take many hobbyist seriously anyway. There are people who are very knowledgable about a subject, but usually they're quite ignorant and don't take reality into account. Steam trains were brilliant when they were invented, but as time progresses so does technology. Passengers don't want 50 year old rolling stock either, they want something more modern and con-temporal. Most hobbyists tend to forget that.

I only take photos at a station if that fits within the picture I want to make. Usually platforms are crowded and the time to take a picture is limited. People walk in front of the camera, and it's usually not allowed to use a tripod or flash. Out in the field those nuisances are far less prevalent.
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In Switzerland you can't seat in first class if the second is full...
That's not allowed in the Netherlands, either. It's an urban myth kept alive by train managers that are pretty much invisible when a train is packed.
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Old January 15th, 2013, 08:58 PM   #616
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Side note: the present day Frecciarossa fleet (good old ETR 500) is being refurbished into 4 classes.
I doubt 2 lower levels are needed, but that's just the way it is.
I wonder about that as well. Maybe that's not the case everywhere, but in Switzerland, Germany and France (TGV) 2nd class is just fine. Personally I've never found a good reason to a lot more for the 1st class. The only real benefit is less people around.
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Old January 15th, 2013, 09:21 PM   #617
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I agree with you.
Things like losing sleep (or affirming to do so) because a train has an "ugly" nose that has ZERO impact over the passenger riding experience.
Or one man's irrational quest to glorify a shit pile of a train.
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Old January 15th, 2013, 11:54 PM   #618
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I wonder about that as well. (...) Personally I've never found a good reason to a lot more for the 1st class. The only real benefit is less people around.
I guess its an unavoidable side effect of the liberalisation of train operations. With new competition, operators have to find ways to differentiate their products and there are very few ways to do so if you don't want to enter an vicious circle of fare dumping. Offering more classes to skim a multitude of willingnesses to pay of your customers is a more attractive option. Time will show if customers actually accept such offers when it comes to train journeys.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 07:37 AM   #619
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I wonder about that as well. Maybe that's not the case everywhere, but in Switzerland, Germany and France (TGV) 2nd class is just fine. Personally I've never found a good reason to a lot more for the 1st class. The only real benefit is less people around.
I actually don't find 2nd class on the TGV just fine. On a TGV I will always try to get a 1st class ticket for a discounted price. 2nd class is too cramped. You really notice that the French are on average a lot smaller than Northern Europeans when you take their trains...
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Old January 16th, 2013, 07:38 AM   #620
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In Switzerland you can't seat in first class if the second is full...
You're not even allowed to stand in first class with a second class ticket.
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