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Old June 20th, 2013, 05:14 PM   #721
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It was just anounced that arriva in cooperation with Brussel airport will start a international connection between The Hague and Brussel South via the old benelux line as an anwser on the failing fyra. The train will stop in The Hague , Delft , Rotterdam ,Dordrecht, Roosendaal, Antwerpen, Mechelen, Brussel Central en Brussel South.
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Old June 20th, 2013, 05:39 PM   #722
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Cool! With conventional loc + wagon trains like that https://www.google.be/maps?q=fun&ll=...71395,4.448365 or other ?
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Old June 20th, 2013, 06:12 PM   #723
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It's not certain yet which trains they'd use, but I think it isn't very likely they'll use the NMBS/SNCB cabins shown there. Also keep in mind that they haven't been given a trajectory for their trains yet as far as I'm aware. I think it's a bit too optimistic to say that the train will now run with certainty, but a big step has been set here.

Also, Brussels Airport is also going to be a stop between Mechelen and Brussels Central. The original article failed to include this stop in the list.
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Old June 21st, 2013, 01:15 AM   #724
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Arriva has stated that they're currently negotiating with train manufacturers, they want to operate this service with brand new rolling stock.
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Old June 21st, 2013, 07:04 AM   #725
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Arriva has stated that they're currently negotiating with train manufacturers, they want to operate this service with brand new rolling stock.
Stadler Flirt maybe?
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Old June 21st, 2013, 07:08 AM   #726
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Stadler FLIRT or maybe even KISS is what I expect, yes.
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Old June 21st, 2013, 12:52 PM   #727
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How on Earth are they gonna get that ready before December?
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Old June 21st, 2013, 02:05 PM   #728
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They won't. The connection is started in December 2015 or earlier if possible as seen on nu.nl (dutch).
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Old June 21st, 2013, 02:12 PM   #729
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If they reach an agreement with another operator who already ordered the trains, from now to December they car fit NS/SNCB equipment and complete test runs.

Some KISSes are already built (just an example).

That's not a probable scenario, IMO.
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 01:19 AM   #730
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Stadler Flirt maybe?
Would the Railjet be an option? With that train they might be able to switch to the HSL...
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 01:27 AM   #731
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They don't want to switch to the high speed line
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 01:43 AM   #732
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In any case: RENFE has some 40 trains idling on its depots. What is the technical feasibility (assuming RENFE wants to) of converting some 10 of their high-speed trains not in use to operate with ATB and the Belgian system?
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 03:33 AM   #733
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It depends on the type of trains not used by RENFE. If they are pure AVE trainsets, it's most likely that these trains will only run on 25 kV AC. In that case you can pretty much forget about ever getting these trains to run in Belgium or the Netherlands, as heavy modifications are needed for these trains to be able to run under 1.5 kV DC and 3 kV DC.

However, if the trains are of the Avant/Alaris/Alvia type (for example, S/120 or S/130), there is hope. These types of trains are made to serve not only high speed lines, but local branch lines as well. They're fitted with gauge changing bogies and can run both on 25 kV AC and 3 kV DC. Having them also run under 1.5 kV DC will be an engineering challenge, but it is definitely not impossible.

As you point out, the major hurdle is the safety system. The Spanish high speed lines are usually signalled with ERTMS and ASFA. The ASFA equipment can be removed (as ASFA is not needed) and replaced with ATB and the Belgian safety systems.

As part of the ERTMS specification, a piece of technology has been developed to interface with legacy signalling systems. This is called a Specific Transmission Module (abbreviated STM), which is installed as part of the ERTMS Vital Computer (EVC), the heart and soul of the ERTMS safety system. The STM translates commands received from the legacy safety system to commands which the EVC can understand.

For the Netherlands, an STM-ATB has been developed and certified for use a couple of years ago. If I'm not mistaken, Traxx locomotives already use this STM-ATB to run on the Dutch network. Not too long ago, an STM-Belgium was developed to support Memor and TBL interfacing in Belgium, which is due to be re-fitted onto the ICE 3M trainsets.

As ERTMS leans heavily on standardisation, it should be possible to add an existing STM to an existing EVC, even if these come from different vendors. So, theoretically speaking, it should be possible to add the Dutch and Belgian safety systems to the Spanish trainsets.

However, STMs aren't cheap, as ERTMS overall isn't cheap. The entire system is classified as SIL 4 (Safety Integrity Level), which means that the margin for errors is very, very slim. Even when these STMs can be easily retrofitted onto the Spanish rolling stock, extensive testing of the safety systems on the Dutch and Belgian networks is needed.
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 10:05 AM   #734
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They won't. The connection is started in December 2015 or earlier if possible as seen on
December 2015 is definitely possible. Stadler has free capacity in it's Bussnang factory in 2014/2015. If Arriva is quick in placing an order production could start almost immediately.

But the safest bet would probably be to get passenger coaches to a UIC design, and locomotives of a type already homologated for Belgium and the Netherlands, as there the highest risk for delays lies.
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 10:56 AM   #735
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Having them also run under 1.5 kV DC will be an engineering challenge, but it is definitely not impossible.
Correct me if I wrong, but I heard, that any 3 kV DC train can be ran under 1,5 kV DC, but only with half of traction power
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 11:17 AM   #736
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Correct me if I wrong, but I heard, that any 3 kV DC train can be ran under 1,5 kV DC, but only with half of traction power
But that is a serious performance hurdle, except for very short runs (like couple km between a change of current point and a changing of loco station).
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 11:24 AM   #737
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Quote:
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Correct me if I wrong, but I heard, that any 3 kV DC train can be ran under 1,5 kV DC, but only with half of traction power
'Any' does disturb the trick. NMBS had expected to run with the new Desiro's to the Netherlands (Roosendaal / Maastricht), but what works on the analogue build BN trains, doesn't seem to work with the digital Desiro's.
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 05:08 PM   #738
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In the old days this was definitely true, any train capable of running under 3 kV could run under 1.5 kV at half power. For modern trains this is different, as the components used are much more sensitive. The Desiro trains cease to operate under 2 kV, for example.
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 05:46 PM   #739
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Quote:
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Stadler FLIRT or maybe even KISS is what I expect, yes.
It's also possibility to buy Polish brand new trains produced by Pesa or Newag. Some of them are already in service in Germany, Poland, Italy, Lithuania
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Been in: A, B, BIH, BR, C, CH, CZ, D, DK, E, F, FL, GB, GE, GBR, H, HR, I, L, LT, MC, MEX, MNE, N, NL, P, PL, RO, RD, RSM, S, SK, SLO, SRB, TR, UA, USA, V
Driven in: A, B, BIH, BR, CH, CZ, D, DK, E, F, FL, GB, GBR, H, HR, I, L, MC, MNE, N, NL, P, PL, RO, S, SLO, SK, SRB, TR, USA
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 11:37 PM   #740
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Quote:
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Correct me if I wrong, but I heard, that any 3 kV DC train can be ran under 1,5 kV DC, but only with half of traction power
P=U²/R, so if you divide U by two, you divide the power by four. Which
definitely ruins any hope for performance. Running at half tension is only
used to reach the next station where locos can be exchanged (exemple :
SNCB to Roosendaal, SNCB to Maastricht, FS to Vintimiglia) but is never
used for long stretches of mainline. Bitension locos (SNCB 11 & 25.5 for
example) are used for that.

On the other hand, if you have equipment for 3 kV, adapting it to run
also Under 1.5 kV is not difficult at all. It was done on some Eurostar sets.
As explained above, the most difficult part is the safety systems.

Which is why I also believe that loco + UIC coaches is the best short-term
option.
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