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Old September 5th, 2013, 04:21 PM   #841
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Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
I don't think there are much parts that will be reusable. The major components (such as traction systems, door systems, etc.) are very train specific. It's unlikely that parts coming from a V250 will fit on a Thalys or ICE.
I'm more thinking along the line of reusing for example the seats when refurbishing some other train. Like was done with the infamous "Lovers" sets when they were scrapped...
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Old September 5th, 2013, 06:31 PM   #842
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Don't forget the coming Eurostar and DB services between Amsterdam and London. Hopefully they will allow domestic passengers ( and the border control hassle moves to London).
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Old September 5th, 2013, 08:35 PM   #843
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I wouldn't count on a rebuild of the V250. Both SNCB and NS have terminated the contract and are working on legal proceedings to get as much money back as possible. Even if NS would lose all court cases (which I deem unlikely) I don't expect V250 to ever enter service again. Instead, the sets would be sent to a demolition company as happened with SM'90.
Well, by terminating the contract the trains will get back to the producer... then I already know where they'll end up


Anyway, I wouldn't suggest buying New Pendolinos in this case. They're good trains, and also the old series were (apart for the Swiss ones, which were abandoned by SBB...), I believe they're a good offer to get a 250 km/h train in a short time, but I think it is not wise to buy a tilting-born train without tilting system: you get the compromise of a very claustrophobic structure, which is due to the gauge reduction needed for tilting, but you don't get the speed advantage given by tilting.
Alstom is offering them to cover that segment, but they're not the best project to suit those features.

One may order them with tilting, but on the NS network you really can't do any use of it...


I would actually suggest to raise the bar and go 300, and point to the AGV. I'm using the NTV ones and it's a great train, and under 3 kV they have a very strong acceleration, with suits the Dutch needs. Under 25 kV they're... beasts, simply a great performance. So, even if you have short HSLs, that train would be able to reach 300 quickly enough.

Just choose different seats, because those of NTV are torture chairs.
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Old September 5th, 2013, 09:39 PM   #844
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Altough it is indeed smaller it doesn't look that bad though.
Interior ETR600


Interior V250
image hosted on flickr
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Old September 5th, 2013, 10:04 PM   #845
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Altough it is indeed smaller it doesn't look that bad though.
Interior ETR600


Interior V250
image hosted on flickr
EDIT:
Found a new candidate:
CAF

Advantage: Are used at the moment in Turkey and Spain.The first trainset for Turkey was build 2 years after they were ordered. Max speed of 250 km/H. A higher capacity than the v250.
Disadvantage:The design looks a bit boring.
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Old September 5th, 2013, 10:10 PM   #846
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Latest CAF I've seen was a Civity, for regio transport, and it was really well built. A good project and good assembly.


The design is not a problem: Dutch trains have always been ugly as hell
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Old September 5th, 2013, 10:24 PM   #847
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Originally Posted by 3737 View Post
Some candidates:
A-train (javelin) form hitachi
Siemens Railjet
Alstom Pendolino without tilting system.
ICx
What about X2000? Or the snow & ice proof train of Ukrainian producer Kremenchuk(?)
I wish you would work at NS or the Dutch Ministry of Infrastructure, at least having a clue about what is available on the market...

Last edited by Theijs; September 5th, 2013 at 10:33 PM.
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Old September 5th, 2013, 10:57 PM   #848
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Quote:
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EDIT:
Found a new candidate:
CAF

Advantage: Are used at the moment in Turkey and Spain.The first trainset for Turkey was build 2 years after they were ordered. Max speed of 250 km/H. A higher capacity than the v250.
Disadvantage:The design looks a bit boring.
Renfe's S/120 is the predecessor of this Turkish train, and I agree with you that it would probably be a very good choice. It's fast enough, it is a proven design and the manufacturers (CAF and Alstom) have a very good name.

For services in The Netherlands and Belgium I think 8 car high speed trains are too much. Trains that are 4 to 6 cars long are long enough, for the most busy routes extra trains could be added.

One could even think of a timetable where trains routinely combine/split in Rotterdam, thereby saving on costly train paths while giving passengers multiple destinations (such as The Hague ánd Amsterdam, over the high speed line, from Brussels).
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Old September 6th, 2013, 02:07 AM   #849
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Anyway, I wouldn't suggest buying New Pendolinos in this case. They're good trains, and also the old series were (apart for the Swiss ones, which were abandoned by SBB...), I believe they're a good offer to get a 250 km/h train in a short time, but I think it is not wise to buy a tilting-born train without tilting system: you get the compromise of a very claustrophobic structure, which is due to the gauge reduction needed for tilting.

I dunno, i rode the CRH5 a lot in China, and it didn't feel claustrophobic at all. It actually seated 3+2 in stead of 2+2, so apparently they can be made as spacious as you want.


Especially after a very similar small order in Poland was done with New Pendolinos and the first train was delivered so quickly, I think NS should go for those trains.
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Old September 6th, 2013, 05:01 AM   #850
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One could even think of a timetable where trains routinely combine/split in Rotterdam, thereby saving on costly train paths while giving passengers multiple destinations (such as The Hague ánd Amsterdam, over the high speed line, from Brussels).
Pro-RAil policy has been to discourage coupling/de-coupling, hasn't it? I think R'dam Centraal is also too busy to host these operations. It also increases travel time.
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Old September 6th, 2013, 07:20 AM   #851
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I dunno, i rode the CRH5 a lot in China, and it didn't feel claustrophobic at all. It actually seated 3+2 in stead of 2+2, so apparently they can be made as spacious as you want.
You can't make them as spacious as you want. You can make them as spacious as the loading gauge allows. China has a wider loading gauge than most of Europe.
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Old September 6th, 2013, 07:23 AM   #852
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Pro-RAil policy has been to discourage coupling/de-coupling, hasn't it? I think R'dam Centraal is also too busy to host these operations. It also increases travel time.
Why should that be a problem? It even saves a platform, compared to having two trains, and only takes a few minutes. Both sections can leave/arrive within minutes. So there won't really be an increase in travel time... Rather the contrary.
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Old September 6th, 2013, 07:32 AM   #853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3737 View Post
Altough it is indeed smaller it doesn't look that bad though.
Interior ETR600


Interior V250
Pendolino's not bad - and is well finished. But it is a lot smaller and gives the feeling of sitting in a hole, not only due to the gauge but also due to the general layout.

Look at the V250's windows (which are not enormous), how wider they seem compared to the Pendolino's ones.
It's a good train, but it implies compromises which NS doesn't need.


On a side note, that Pendolino pic is crazy: the list of stops include stations which that train may never reach, some are even on diesel lines must have been a presentation to the public.
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Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
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Old September 6th, 2013, 09:41 AM   #854
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Pro-RAil policy has been to discourage coupling/de-coupling, hasn't it? I think R'dam Centraal is also too busy to host these operations. It also increases travel time.
I don't think an infrastructure manager is in the position to decide what timetable an operator will offer. Of course they have a great deal of influence (the tracks have to be there, don't they?) but if an operator wants to couple/uncouple in a station ProRail shouldn't be blocking them from it.

I don't think that an increase of travel time is that much of a deal for a trip that goes over the high speed line, even with coupling the trip is still 25 minutes faster than the old route.
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Old September 6th, 2013, 03:18 PM   #855
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On a side note, that Pendolino pic is crazy: the list of stops include stations which that train may never reach, some are even on diesel lines must have been a presentation to the public.
They seem to be connecting trains from Venezia Mestre.
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Old September 6th, 2013, 03:43 PM   #856
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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Well, by terminating the contract the trains will get back to the producer... then I already know where they'll end up


Anyway, I wouldn't suggest buying New Pendolinos in this case. They're good trains, and also the old series were (apart for the Swiss ones, which were abandoned by SBB...), I believe they're a good offer to get a 250 km/h train in a short time, but I think it is not wise to buy a tilting-born train without tilting system: you get the compromise of a very claustrophobic structure..

One may order them with tilting, but on the NS network you really can't do any use of it...


I would actually suggest to raise the bar and go 300, and point to the AGV. I'm using the NTV ones and it's a great train, and under 3 kV they have a very strong acceleration, with suits the Dutch needs. Under 25 kV they're... beasts, simply a great performance. So, even if you have short HSLs, that train would be able to reach 300 quickly enough.

Just choose different seats, because those of NTV are torture chairs.

I agree. The AGV Platform is from V250 to 360 km/h . Alternatively one can buy upgraded S120, or the new Oares /Oaris...

I believe that in the short stretches of the Dutch HSL the acceleration is far more important than the V300 top speed. Alstom shouldn't have any problem in building an AGV with an acceleration of 0.9 ~1.2 m/s2 and Vmax of 300 ~320 km/h.
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Old September 6th, 2013, 04:14 PM   #857
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Well, by terminating the contract the trains will get back to the producer... then I already know where they'll end up
Libya



As for a new order. It's good if the NS take their time and properly look on how they see the role of the HSL Zuid in a broader long term development of the Dutch national and international network. And only then they should have a good look around at what's on the market before going ahead with another tender for new trains.

Tilting trains should not be part of this option, unless they decide make the Amsterdam - Brussel service a proper Benelux Train and extend the service to Luxembourg (and maybe even further to Strasbourg).
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Old September 6th, 2013, 04:54 PM   #858
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
They seem to be connecting trains from Venezia Mestre.
Shhh... shut up! Don't let anyone know I sorted out an incredibly complicated interpretation of what was a simple information

Self-FAIL!
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Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
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Old September 6th, 2013, 10:04 PM   #859
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Tilting trains should not be part of this option


Nobody is suggesting tilting trains.
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Old September 6th, 2013, 11:31 PM   #860
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Libya..


.

Or given to the Italian TI.......
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