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Old September 7th, 2013, 02:47 PM   #861
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post


I agree. The AGV Platform is from V250 to 360 km/h . Alternatively one can buy upgraded S120, or the new Oares /Oaris...

I believe that in the short stretches of the Dutch HSL the acceleration is far more important than the V300 top speed. Alstom shouldn't have any problem in building an AGV with an acceleration of 0.9 ~1.2 m/s2 and Vmax of 300 ~320 km/h.
There is no need for an other highspeedtrain next to Thalys between Amsterdam and Brussels except for one or two trains per day to London. A train for 200-230 km/h wil do all; CD just cancelled an order for 8 additional Railjet- trains which has exact the good specs for a train between Amsterdam and Brussels.
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Old September 7th, 2013, 08:32 PM   #862
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It's extremely unlikely a high speed train between Amsterdam and London would be able to compete with the airplane.
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Old September 7th, 2013, 09:36 PM   #863
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It's extremely unlikely a high speed train between Amsterdam and London would be able to compete with the airplane.
Why not?

People already travel from Amsterdam to London by train. Offering a single seat ride would certainly increase their numbers. A direct Asterdam - London train would take less then 4 hours. That is competitive with air travel.
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Old September 7th, 2013, 11:39 PM   #864
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There are very frequent connections between London City airport and Schiphol / RTH-THE airport. The last one in particular is a very good alternative for the train. I've taken the train to London once, but I much prefer the airplane. It's simply faster and the prices are not that different.
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Old September 7th, 2013, 11:46 PM   #865
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At only a bit under 4 hours train wouldn't dominate the market, but surely it would have a solid share assuming prices are similar and schedule convenient. There are plenty of people who are not that wild about flying unless they have to.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 01:06 AM   #866
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I'm not sure you can run a train by targeting the demographic that feels a bit iffy about flying. Trains from Holland to London will always be problematic because of simple geography: you have to take a heck of a curve through Belgium and France to get there.

The fastest trains are now faster than ferries, but they'll never be faster than planes on this particular connection. If prices are equal, the plane will continue to dominate the market. Considering the costs of running high speed trains, one wonders if anyone will volunteer to exploit this service in the future. I think Deutsche Bahn had plans but I doubt they could make it work.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 01:43 AM   #867
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A non-stop service will be pointless, indeed. However, if adding stops in Brussels and maybe Antwerp the target market will be bigger which results in making the service more successful.

It's possible that Eurostar is going to do a 1-on-1 replacement of a Brussels service by extending it to Amsterdam. The current Eurostar rolling stock offers seats to 750 passengers, it's rare that those are all full. The new e320 will offer 900 seats, so there would be enough capacity for passengers from the Netherlands ánd Belgium.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 02:01 AM   #868
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Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
I'm not sure you can run a train by targeting the demographic that feels a bit iffy about flying. Trains from Holland to London will always be problematic because of simple geography: you have to take a heck of a curve through Belgium and France to get there.

The fastest trains are now faster than ferries, but they'll never be faster than planes on this particular connection. If prices are equal, the plane will continue to dominate the market. Considering the costs of running high speed trains, one wonders if anyone will volunteer to exploit this service in the future. I think Deutsche Bahn had plans but I doubt they could make it work.
It works elsewhere with similar distances, airline competition and travel time so not sure why you say it would definitely fail in Holland. Zurich-Paris for example have 6 trains per day and travel time about 4 h, probably about as many flight as well. Basel-Paris route (1 h less) is train dominated (also 4 flights/day), not sure about Zurich. Perhaps London-Amsterdam train takes only 30% of the market, but even that could provide a good profit for someone.

I'm not afraid of flying, but I prefer a train because of baggage restrictions in airplanes. With a train I can travel light and still take with me say a bottle of wine or a pocket knife.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 02:07 AM   #869
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A non-stop service will be pointless, indeed. However, if adding stops in Brussels and maybe Antwerp the target market will be bigger which results in making the service more successful.

It's possible that Eurostar is going to do a 1-on-1 replacement of a Brussels service by extending it to Amsterdam. The current Eurostar rolling stock offers seats to 750 passengers, it's rare that those are all full. The new e320 will offer 900 seats, so there would be enough capacity for passengers from the Netherlands ánd Belgium.
Isn't Brussels-London route dominated by the train? Airlines could compete there only by price as there is no way one could travel the distance faster that way (2 h). Also is Eurostar train from Brussels to London stopping somewhere else in France/England before reaching London?
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Old September 8th, 2013, 02:49 AM   #870
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Isn't Brussels-London route dominated by the train? Airlines could compete there only by price as there is no way one could travel the distance faster that way (2 h).
I believe most passengers have been taken from airlines between Paris and London. Brussels - London is busy too, but I think there is enough spare capacity to fill.

A large number of people from the Netherlands who prefer the train already use Eurostar, so those seats are already accounted for in today's passenger numbers. I think the additional capacity offered by the e320 train sets is enough to cope with the increased demand generated by direct Amsterdam - London services, and that's why I don't expect an increase in the amount of services between Brussels and London offered by Eurostar.

If Eurostar would use the e320 for this, it could re-use the TGV-TMST fleet to provide services to other destinations in France, or to add an extra service to/from Brussels if the Amsterdam services are causing capacity issues along the route.
Quote:
Also is Eurostar train from Brussels to London stopping somewhere else in France/England before reaching London?
Yes, all Eurostar trains make at least 1 intermediate stop between Brussels and Paris. See the timetable:
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Old September 8th, 2013, 11:54 AM   #871
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A non-stop service will be pointless, indeed. However, if adding stops in Brussels and maybe Antwerp the target market will be bigger which results in making the service more successful.
The important question is wether this service will also be permitted to transport Amsterdam - Brussel or Amsterdam - Antwerpen passengers. That will make a big difference when it comes to profitability.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 12:10 PM   #872
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Is Eurostar allowed to transport Brussels-Lille or Brussels-Calais passengers?
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Old September 8th, 2013, 01:12 PM   #873
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It works elsewhere with similar distances,
I hear that all the time, but I don't think you can compare it to continental services.

Just look at the map: a plane can get from Rotterdam - The Hague Airport to London City Airport in 45 or 50 minutes: a straight line across the North Sea. Rotterdam - The Hague Airport also has no waiting times worth mentioning: Jan recently cycled up to the terminal building and found he could get from his front door to the airplane seat in less than an hour.

Trains, meanwhile, have to take a necessary but lengthy detour through Belgium and France.

That's why you can't compare Amsterdam/Rotterdam - London to Paris - Zurich. Because of geography.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 01:34 PM   #874
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Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
I hear that all the time, but I don't think you can compare it to continental services.

Just look at the map: a plane can get from Rotterdam - The Hague Airport to London City Airport in 45 or 50 minutes: a straight line across the North Sea. Rotterdam - The Hague Airport also has no waiting times worth mentioning: Jan recently cycled up to the terminal building and found he could get from his front door to the airplane seat in less than an hour.

Trains, meanwhile, have to take a necessary but lengthy detour through Belgium and France.

That's why you can't compare Amsterdam/Rotterdam - London to Paris - Zurich. Because of geography.
Why would you care how long a detour train makes geographically if it still arrives in 3.5 h? Travel time including getting to and from airport on time is the only relevant measurement. Prices of course as well, but that's a different discussion.

I agree that you could make this journey faster with a plane, under optimal conditions at least, however the difference is sufficiently small (ca 1 h)that it wouldn't completely shut out a train service.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 02:14 PM   #875
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It wasn't anywhere near 3.5 hours when I took the train to London. More like 4.5. The point is you can't go any quicker than that because of the geographic detour. So if you can't go closer to airplane travel times, you have to make the difference in travel fares. Which isn't happening.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 02:16 PM   #876
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Why would you care how long a detour train makes geographically if it still arrives in 3.5 h? Travel time including getting to and from airport on time is the only relevant measurement. Prices of course as well, but that's a different discussion.
It means on-air flight time is shorter

I've flown London City - Rotterdam, flight stays on air less than 34 minutes I think.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 02:17 PM   #877
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Is Eurostar allowed to transport Brussels-Lille or Brussels-Calais passengers?
They did so in the past, people could get on at Brussels and get off at Lille, without ever seeing passport control as this is not permitted under Schengen. Some people used this possibility to get to London, it's called the Lille loophole.

I think Eurostar stopped selling tickets from Brussels to Lille, there are plenty of other trains to get you there.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 02:42 PM   #878
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Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
It wasn't anywhere near 3.5 hours when I took the train to London. More like 4.5. The point is you can't go any quicker than that because of the geographic detour. So if you can't go closer to airplane travel times, you have to make the difference in travel fares. Which isn't happening.
I checked and the combined Thalys+Eurostar time is 3 h 50 min. To be honest I thought Amsterdam-Brussels leg is faster than it actually is when I wrote my previous post. There must be a lot of restrictions and non-high speed sections for these 200 km to take close to 2 h. Still 4 h (assuming 10 min stop in Brussels Midi) while a bit marginal is also not completely out of train territory.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 04:23 PM   #879
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Of the 200 km mentioned in your post, only 130 km is truly high-speed. There are some limiting sections:

Amsterdam - Schiphol takes 15 minutes, because that route is oversaturated. From the HSL to Rotterdam takes nearly 5 minutes because of a sharp bend and, again, some oversaturation. From Rotterdam to the HSL takes approx. 8 minutes (the HSL starts at Barendrecht).

From Barendrecht to Antwerpen-Luchtbal is a real high speed line, you're there in a jiffy. But from Antwerp to Brussels, trains have to go over busy classical lines with a Vmax of 160 km/h... this easily takes 40 minutes.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 04:52 PM   #880
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Hence my idea of a high-speed underground line between Ams. Centraal and Schiphol, they could built it 4 tracks so that the other 2 are a subway (like they have between Hollendrecht and Amstel).
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