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Old September 8th, 2013, 07:38 PM   #881
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Hence my idea of a high-speed underground line between Ams. Centraal and Schiphol, they could built it 4 tracks so that the other 2 are a subway (like they have between Hollendrecht and Amstel).
Building an underground HSR from Amsterdam Central Station to their airport is ridiculously cost prohibitive considering the tiny amount of time gained with such a connection and the fact that it needs to be deep underground considering that that city has a large collection of monumental buildings all built on a peat bog. The way how they managed to screw up their latest cross-city subway line in a fashion which would make Polish infrastructure ventures seem timely and efficient underlines this even more...

I honestly think the Dutch have better ways to spend their budget than to waste it on getting 2,000 suits a day 3 minutes faster to the airport at a price tag of probably 3 to 4 billion EUR. In my opinion a better return on investment could be had by improving the existing infrastructure and possibly - if they want to splurge - by extending their newest disaster of a subway line - above ground - to the airport.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 08:17 PM   #882
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Expanding the Noordzuidlijn to Schiphol is good policy, but it will not be very effective for travel between Amsterdam Centraal and Schiphol (though very effictive for serving the Zuidas and Amstelveen).

Schiphol needs a larger station as well..
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Old September 8th, 2013, 08:26 PM   #883
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HSLs will always be "slowed down" when approaching nodes, because the layout must adapt to the city, usually by sharing tracks with existing lines.

You can build a dedicated new infrastructure, but it will cost a lot of money and will be used just by a few specialized trains.

Actually Amsterdam and Rotterdam have well designed urban railways, they only need some specific improvement, eg: making urban stretches usable at 160+ km/h, and most of all improving capacity.
Some sharp bends are not a problem: when approaching the cities, trains will be already slowing down, you wouldn't gain great times even with a 300 km/h track straight under Amsterdam CS...

Let's face it: if you have two stops is such a short distance, you will never ever have "HSR times". To have great times from Amsterdam CS you should avoid Schipol... which is nonsense for the system.

Are there any long term plans for new tracks at Schipol and a new tube for Rotterdam's tunnel?
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Old September 8th, 2013, 08:46 PM   #884
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Something I never understood is why haven't they plugged the railway that comes from south of the Maas into what is present-day Randstad Rail "E", instead of putting two very tight curves around Rotterdam Centraal. Especially considering the city was destroyed in WW2, they could have done that and saved a couple km...

http://goo.gl/maps/SzPDc
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Old September 9th, 2013, 04:53 AM   #885
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In 1945 the connection Rotterdam-Utrecht didn't exist as we know it today.
Before WW2 there were 3 different connections with 3 different main stations which were build by 3 different companies.
The HIJSM build The Hague HS-Rotterdam Delftse Poort-Dordrecht (Red)
The ZHESM build The Hague HS-Rotterdam Hofplein (Green).
The NRS build Utrecht-Rotterdam Maas (Blue)
In 1899 the ceintuurbaan (purple) was build by the HIJSM to connect Rotterdam Delftse poort and Rotterdam Maas. Also a connection was made with the ZHESM/green line.

After the bombardment in 1940, Rotterdam Maas and Rotterdam Hofplein were totally destroyed. Rotterdam Delftse poort was damaged but could still be used. In 1942 they decided to connect Utrecht via Rotterdam Delftse poort by building the brown line. After completion they demollished the blue part and the east side of the ceintuurbaan. After the war station Rotterdam hofplijn was rebuild and Rotterdam Delftse Poort was demolished to make place for Rotterdam CS as the new main station of Rotterdam. Since the present time the ZHESM line has been converted to a metro line and a new metro tunnel has been build (black).Rotterdam Hofplijn is now decommissioned, also the connection with the ceintuurbaan is removed due to the new metrotunnel which connects at the same point as the old connection.

Something I did never understand was why they never build something like the yellow line after the bombardment which would take a lot shorter to build and the trains don't have to drive around Rotterdam using the ceintuurbaan. Also due to the bombardment they didn't have to demolish houses to build a yellow line which was a problem in 1899.

@suburbanist did you mean something like the light green line I draw ?
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Old September 9th, 2013, 08:27 AM   #886
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Slightly off-topic, but is there a plan to introduce tram, possible metro services in other Dutch cities like Eindhoven and Utrecht?
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Old September 9th, 2013, 10:09 AM   #887
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There are no plans for that.

Groningen had plans for a tram, but city council killed the plans after much doubting.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 11:31 AM   #888
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Slightly off-topic, but is there a plan to introduce tram, possible metro services in other Dutch cities like Eindhoven and Utrecht?
Those towns aren't really big enough for that to be economically feasible. Even in The Hague, the HTM is just scraping by.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 02:23 PM   #889
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Slightly off-topic, but is there a plan to introduce tram, possible metro services in other Dutch cities like Eindhoven and Utrecht?
Yes, there are, for Utrecht. Utrecht already has LRT, and they will expand their LRT to reach the University Campus area.

Once this is done, there are already some ideas of maybe also replacing a busline with a tram/LRT in the west/center of the city.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 03:32 PM   #890
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3737 View Post
In 1945 the connection Rotterdam-Utrecht didn't exist as we know it today.
Before WW2 there were 3 different connections with 3 different main stations which were build by 3 different companies.
The HIJSM build The Hague HS-Rotterdam Delftse Poort-Dordrecht (Red)
The ZHESM build The Hague HS-Rotterdam Hofplein (Green).
The NRS build Utrecht-Rotterdam Maas (Blue)
In 1899 the ceintuurbaan (purple) was build by the HIJSM to connect Rotterdam Delftse poort and Rotterdam Maas. Also a connection was made with the ZHESM/green line.

After the bombardment in 1940, Rotterdam Maas and Rotterdam Hofplein were totally destroyed. Rotterdam Delftse poort was damaged but could still be used. In 1942 they decided to connect Utrecht via Rotterdam Delftse poort by building the brown line. After completion they demollished the blue part and the east side of the ceintuurbaan. After the war station Rotterdam hofplijn was rebuild and Rotterdam Delftse Poort was demolished to make place for Rotterdam CS as the new main station of Rotterdam. Since the present time the ZHESM line has been converted to a metro line and a new metro tunnel has been build (black).Rotterdam Hofplijn is now decommissioned, also the connection with the ceintuurbaan is removed due to the new metrotunnel which connects at the same point as the old connection.

Something I did never understand was why they never build something like the yellow line after the bombardment which would take a lot shorter to build and the trains don't have to drive around Rotterdam using the ceintuurbaan. Also due to the bombardment they didn't have to demolish houses to build a yellow line which was a problem in 1899.

@suburbanist did you mean something like the light green line I draw ?
Yes, maybe they could have made Hofplein the major Rotterdam station in 2 levels (Utrecht - sChiedam and Rdam Zuid - Den Haag)
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Old September 9th, 2013, 05:58 PM   #891
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Those towns aren't really big enough for that to be economically feasible. Even in The Hague, the HTM is just scraping by.
Both cities I mentioned have over 200,000 people in the central city alone. That's good for enough tram service IMO. And what do you mean by economic feasibility?
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Old September 9th, 2013, 06:13 PM   #892
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The line Rotterdam Delftse poort-Dordrecht did cut trough the first and second Rotterdam hofplijn station but they never build a platform.

link
Also in my opinion they did place Rotterdam CS at a real poor place.
I would have build the new Rotterdam CS around the same place as Rotterdam Blaak. I would scrap Rotterdam Hofplijn and Rotterdam Maas and connect them with the new station. If the bend with Rotterdam maas would have been to sharp, they could have made a new connection with the ceintuurbaan, build the brown line like the drawing in my other post and scrapping the west part of the ceintuurbaan and blue line.They could have used Rotterdam Delftse poort as a smaller station like Rotterdam blaak is now.


When making these images I also noticed something different. In the Netherlands we only have 1 main terminus (The Hague CS) and most cities only uses 1 station as the main station where as in other big cities in Europe they al uses a lot more. For example London:Paddington,Kings cross,Victoria, St. Pancras,Waterloo etc. When looking at the development of the rail infrastructure of the Netherlands they first build the terminus stations on other sides of the city. Later on connected them with a ring like railway around the city. And as last demolished the old terminus station and building new stations or transformed the terminus stations into normal stations always using 1 station as the main station.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 11:12 PM   #893
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When making these images I also noticed something different. In the Netherlands we only have 1 main terminus (The Hague CS) and most cities only uses 1 station as the main station where as in other big cities in Europe they al uses a lot more.
That is not too dissimilar to railway networks in adjacent countries. Paris is the only city in continental Europe I can think of which preserved its network structure of several termini. Every other city merged smaller stations into big ones and often replaced termini with through stations in this process. Vienna is currently the latest example for this development.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 11:33 AM   #894
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Both cities I mentioned have over 200,000 people in the central city alone. That's good for enough tram service IMO. And what do you mean by economic feasibility?
Sorry, but 200.000 people isn't nearly enough for a significant tram network. It's miles away from being subway-worthy.

First of all, the Dutch soil isn't very suitable for digging tunnels so any subway system will be hugely expensive in construction costs (just look at the Noord-Zuid lijn in Amsterdam). There's no way a town of just 200.000 people could cough up that kind of money or expect to earn it back through ticket fares. Even Amsterdam, with financial support of the national government, is almost going bankrupt on digging a single subway line of just 8 stops!

Trams are a little easier, but putting all the rails down is still a massive job. In Groningen, it proved to be plainly too expensive (its relatively limited network would cost 450 million euro to construct).

The third largest city in the country, The Hague, has just over 500.000 inhabitants and 1.3 million in the metropolitan area. And it can't afford a subway. It keeps its tram network because the tracks were already there from over 100 years ago, but the tram company HTM hasn't actually made a profit in living memory. That's not surprising: public transportation is very rarely profitable except in the world's megacities.

There's a reason Utrecht's sneltram never ventures into the historic city center and instead rides around suburban areas where land is cheaper. Nobody has the money to build an old-fashioned tram system in Utrecht, let alone a subway.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 01:46 PM   #895
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Isn't the recently built tram tunnel under The Hague quite a serious bit of tunnelling?!

In terms of profitability, in the UK, recent tram systems like Manchester and West Midlands have to charge high enough fares so that they cover their operating costs, although the construction costs are not recovered. The UK, outside London and Northern Ireland, has bus deregulation. This means that the vast majority of buses are run for profit, and bus companies charge high enough fares to enable them to be profitable. They do get a small amount of subsidy per mile (in the old days it was to pay for the fuel tax but it no longer covers that) and they also get money to carry old and disabled people for free. Bus deregulation would not be possible in the Netherlands because so many people use cycles for trips where they would use buses in the UK.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 02:00 PM   #896
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The Netherlands has a lot of very good busway systems, like Haarlem to Amsterdam ZO, several in Utrecht, the whole of Almere, Rotterdam Rodenrijs to Zoetermeer etc. which are arguably almost as good as having trams and a lot cheaper.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 02:50 PM   #897
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The Netherlands has a lot of very good busway systems, like Haarlem to Amsterdam ZO, several in Utrecht, the whole of Almere, Rotterdam Rodenrijs to Zoetermeer etc. which are arguably almost as good as having trams and a lot cheaper.
Agree.
In most cases, these bus are much more economical to run than trams. So unless there is a need for additional capacity, it's just as fast, and cheaper.
Almere is an excellent example. Fast, frequent, reliable.

As a French man, I followed the development of the French tram network, which was absolutely amazing in the last ten years. It has become a kind of hype for each city to have its tram. In most cases, it is absolutely ridiculous, and a bus would have perfectly fit in.
I can't remember the exact figures, but it should be quite simple to determine what is needed :
< 30,000 users per day : bus
30,000<100,000 : tram
100,000<400,000 : metro
> 400,000 : train (like RER in Paris).

There are not that many lines which will have more than 30,000 users a day in the Netherlands. In Utrecht, where I live, which is the biggest city without a proper tram network, I see a few maybe, where triple bus are not even enough today.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 03:23 PM   #898
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Sorry, but 200.000 people isn't nearly enough for a significant tram network.
They are, for French standards.

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Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
Nobody has the money to build an old-fashioned tram system in Utrecht, let alone a subway.
But an extension is under construction: http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/nl/utr/utrecht.htm
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Old September 10th, 2013, 03:31 PM   #899
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Isn't the recently built tram tunnel under The Hague quite a serious bit of tunnelling?!
The construction of which took 5 years longer than expected and ended up costing € 204.000,- per meter. The city is still traumatized.

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They are, for French standards.
Good for them.

Quote:
But an extension is under construction: http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/nl/utr/utrecht.htm
Yeah, an above-ground extension in an area that is not exactly short on space:

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Old September 10th, 2013, 03:31 PM   #900
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The new tram line in Utrecht will replace the very frequent extra long articulated buses (3 section) on the particularly busy route to the hospital and university.

The current bus timetable is ridiculously frequent even in the off peak hours.
http://gvu.nl/gvulijndetails.aspx?sy...012&richting=1

It is replaced by express buses in peak times.
http://gvu.nl/gvulijndetails.aspx?sy...062&richting=1

There is also a route 11 which is almost as frequent, going a different way to the university.

So I can certainly see how a tram would be appropriate for this level of demand.
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