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Old September 19th, 2013, 04:05 PM   #941
MattN
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I'm not sure where you get the idea from that it can't be checked whether people have 'the correct travel entitlement'? Controleurs can check it, and in Rotterdam at least they very frequently do. Fare evasion is also supposed to have reduced massively (I think they estimate it at about 75%?).

I recognise that there are ways in which the Chipkaart has made things more difficult and/or expensive, especially for foreign tourists, but I don't think that the claims you made here stack up.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 07:28 PM   #942
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I'm not sure where you get the idea from that it can't be checked whether people have 'the correct travel entitlement'? Controleurs can check it
Yes,they can, but by then it's too late.


It should be easier for travellers to double-check whether they have checked-in properly.

For example, I once went through the gates at a metro station. The gates were already open because I went right behind someone else. I didn't hear a beep, and the text that appeared on the little screen could just as well have been from the guy before me. I had NO idea whether I was checked in. There happened to be 'controleurs' at the gates that day, so I asked one how I could check if I had already checked in. HE had to let me out of the gates (if I hadn't checked in, but used my own OV-chipcard to go out through the gates, it would have cost me 4 euros), so I could use the blue device to see my status. Then the guy had to let me back in (double check-in would also be 4 euros).

This is WAY to complicated.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 07:40 PM   #943
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I can't believe controleurs don't have a device for reading the actual state of the chippy.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 09:04 PM   #944
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I can't believe controleurs don't have a device for reading the actual state of the chippy.
Normal controleurs do, but not those guys standing at the gates.


And still, you should be able to check your status a LOT more easily AFTER the gates, even if no controleur is nearby.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 09:13 PM   #945
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I'm not sure where you get the idea from that it can't be checked whether people have 'the correct travel entitlement'? Controleurs can check it, and in Rotterdam at least they very frequently do. Fare evasion is also supposed to have reduced massively (I think they estimate it at about 75%?). I recognise that there are ways in which the Chipkaart has made things more difficult and/or expensive, especially for foreign tourists, but I don't think that the claims you made here stack up.
The thing is that passengers themselves can't can't check if they have the right ticket, wether they're in order.

You don't need a sophisticated system to fight fare evasion. Switzerland has open stations (even at the Lausanne metro), no ticket sales on board most busses and trams, and no conductors on local trains. Fare evasion however is negligible.
You achieve this by treating your customers as adults, and not as children who can't be trusted...
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Old September 20th, 2013, 01:18 AM   #946
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Fare evasion however is negligible.
Any statistics on Swiss fare evasion? SBB has in recent years expanded the penalty fare system to cover the whole country with a 90 CHF fine for boarding without a ticket. That suggests they have been having issues with zwartrijders themselves.

http://www.sbb.ch/en/station-service...rmationen.html

The Netherlands used to work on the 'honour' system for buses. You used to stamp your strippenkaarten yourself. When I first visited NL in the early 90s this surprised me, coming from the UK where you have always had to pay the driver or show your ticket to the driver. When I visited again in the late 90s it was all different. The driver stamped your strippenkaart. Presumably the Dutch bus companies realised they were losing a lot of money.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 01:33 AM   #947
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radamfi View Post

Any statistics on Swiss fare evasion? SBB has in recent years expanded the penalty fare system to cover the whole country with a 90 CHF fine for boarding without a ticket. That suggests they have been having issues with zwartrijders themselves.

http://www.sbb.ch/en/station-service...rmationen.html

The Netherlands used to work on the 'honour' system for buses. You used to stamp your strippenkaarten yourself. When I first visited NL in the early 90s this surprised me, coming from the UK where you have always had to pay the driver or show your ticket to the driver. When I visited again in the late 90s it was all different. The driver stamped your strippenkaart. Presumably the Dutch bus companies realised they were losing a lot of money.
Yes, but that was also the time when the entire Dutch public transport system was working under the assumption of good faith. You were able to travel pretty much anywhere without a valid ticket on trams and busses. If ticket inspectors did come, it was very little trouble to give up a false name. Obviously these times are now gone after they've finally realised that the system of good faith has failed.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 08:55 AM   #948
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Any statistics on Swiss fare evasion? SBB has in recent years expanded the penalty fare system to cover the whole country with a 90 CHF fine for boarding without a ticket. That suggests they have been having issues with zwartrijders themselves.
SBB estimate fare evasion at about 1.4%. That is quite low. The SBB has indeed recently started applying the penalty fare system to the whole network, and not just local trains as previously. This to better be able to combat notorious fare evaders.


Quote:
The Netherlands used to work on the 'honour' system for buses. You used to stamp your strippenkaarten yourself. When I first visited NL in the early 90s this surprised me, coming from the UK where you have always had to pay the driver or show your ticket to the driver. When I visited again in the late 90s it was all different. The driver stamped your strippenkaart. Presumably the Dutch bus companies realised they were losing a lot of money.
The problem is that this increases dwell times for buses, and thus increases travel time and reduces time table stability. Having to get your pass out, or paying at every transfer also increases the "friction" in the system, making it less attractive. In the Netherlands it's all part of a regrettable tendency to punish the group for the misbehaviour of some individuals.

Here in Switzerland I commute to the office every day by public transit, and also to four different other locations, and have travel times that are comparable to a car.
In the train I can read however.
One of the reason why door-to-door transit times are so short is that I can really plan with 3 minute bus-train-bus transfers. This only works reliably in a system that allows boarding at all doors, and does not require any ticket inspection, or checking in or out upon boarding.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 09:04 AM   #949
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Yes, but that was also the time when the entire Dutch public transport system was working under the assumption of good faith. You were able to travel pretty much anywhere without a valid ticket on trams and busses. If ticket inspectors did come, it was very little trouble to give up a false name. Obviously these times are now gone after they've finally realised that the system of good faith has failed.
And this central "bug", has not been solved with the OV chipcard. You can still give up a false name...

The "honor system" can (and does) work if some conditions are met.
- Fare integration, making monthly or yearly passes attractive. For example the integrated ZVV system around Zürich, or the "GA". In Switzerland, as soon as you commute from one of the major cities to another one the most cost effective transit pass is the "General Abo" (GA) which basically gives you unlimited travel on the whole PT network, for about 3000 euro a year. About half a million people have one in Switzerland (as do I...), which means that most regular PT users have one...
- High fines. And on the third offense you will see a day in court. And if you can't show a valid official photo-ID when checked the PT police will hand you over to the regular police, which won't let you go until they've established your real identity.

In Switzerland this leads to very low rates of fare evasion. They only need to make sure that PT users face a chance of one check every month to make sure fare evasion doesn't pay.

Trying to solve the problem of people abusing the honor system by abolishing it is in my opinion not a good thing. It reduces the appeal of public transit. We are seeing this in the Netherlands...
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Old September 20th, 2013, 01:20 PM   #950
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As far as I am aware you have to show a valid ID in the Netherlands as well
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Old September 20th, 2013, 01:32 PM   #951
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As far as I am aware you have to show a valid ID in the Netherlands as well
Yes you do. It hasn't always been like that. Back in the 90s kids would keep a second school diary on them with a fake name and address written in it. That was their ticket...
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Old September 21st, 2013, 01:11 AM   #952
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Trying to solve the problem of people abusing the honor system by abolishing it is in my opinion not a good thing. It reduces the appeal of public transit. We are seeing this in the Netherlands...
I agree that speedy boarding is important. However, is it fair to say that it the Netherlands has abandoned this by adopting the OV-Chipkaart? Poortjes for metro and, possibly in the future, national rail, doesn't really slow you down that much. Trams and some bendy buses still allow multi-door boarding and alighting. Even on a normal bus, people can pretty much touch in without slowing down their walk onto the bus.
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Old September 21st, 2013, 01:42 AM   #953
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Even on a normal bus, people can pretty much touch in without slowing down their walk onto the bus.
Depends: some bus operators (such as Veolia) have really slow readers. You'll need to hold your card in front of the reader for 4 seconds before it reacts to it. Other operators such as HTMbuzz and GVB have speedy readers where touching is enough.
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Old September 21st, 2013, 10:25 PM   #954
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Depends: some bus operators (such as Veolia) have really slow readers. You'll need to hold your card in front of the reader for 4 seconds before it reacts to it. Other operators such as HTMbuzz and GVB have speedy readers where touching is enough.
Now that is silly. Why don't they get them replaced? I've travelled on GVB, RET, HTM and Connexxion buses so I've been 'lucky' in not using Veolia. I was in Tilburg bus station recently and saw lots of Veolia buses but didn't check whether the boarding time was slow.

If the Dutch want to save money, then why do they still buy high standard German buses like MANs and Mercedes? They could buy cheap rubbish like the ADL Enviro range that we endure in the UK.
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Old September 21st, 2013, 10:49 PM   #955
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Depends: some bus operators (such as Veolia) have really slow readers. You'll need to hold your card in front of the reader for 4 seconds before it reacts to it. Other operators such as HTMbuzz and GVB have speedy readers where touching is enough.
This. God I hate the Veolia readers.
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Old September 21st, 2013, 11:08 PM   #956
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Do the Veolia trains in Limburg have the similar bad card readers?

I suppose it could be worse. In many places in the UK you have to place the card on top of the ticket machine, wait until it beeps then take it off again. Outside London, smartcards are primarily used by old people for their free travel so they have great difficulty putting the card in the right place, wasting a lot of time.
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Old September 21st, 2013, 11:29 PM   #957
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Now that is silly. Why don't they get them replaced?
These devices were bought a couple of years ago (when the OV-chipkaart was introduced) and were probably the result of a competitive tender. Replacing them means making a lot of costs with little time gained.

Quote:
I've travelled on GVB, RET, HTM and Connexxion buses so I've been 'lucky' in not using Veolia. I was in Tilburg bus station recently and saw lots of Veolia buses but didn't check whether the boarding time was slow.
It definitely slows down the boarding process compared to other operators that have faster readers, but times are comparable to the old way: presenting your "strippenkaart" to the driver and telling him where you want to go to so he can place the stamp in the right square.
Quote:
If the Dutch want to save money, then why do they still buy high standard German buses like MANs and Mercedes? They could buy cheap rubbish like the ADL Enviro range that we endure in the UK.
Public transport authorities tend to set high demands for the vehicles, and it's becoming more and more the norm that the operator of the next term takes over the vehicles if they're still fit-for-purpose. Cheaper buses that are ready for demolition at the end of a concession period are considered to be uneconomical and "not green".

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This. God I hate the Veolia readers.
Me too. The readers are slow and have a horrible display that shows little information. The good thing about the readers is that they show the name of the stop the system assumes the vehicle is at, so you can tell if there's an error with regards to vehicle positioning.

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Do the Veolia trains in Limburg have the similar bad card readers?


Veolia, Arriva and Syntus have the same god-awful readers (the one on the left). Those readers are slow, have the display at an awkward angle, and the sounds ('beep') are barely audible.

The readers on the right (used by NS and Connexxion) are much better: they're very fast: tapping your card against the "Kaart hier" sticker (which is a WTF in itself) is enough. The display provides more information, and there's a clear distinction between check-in (one long beep), check-out (two short beeps) and an error (three beeps in an alternating tone).
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Last edited by AlexNL; September 21st, 2013 at 11:34 PM.
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Old September 22nd, 2013, 11:15 AM   #958
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It definitely slows down the boarding process compared to other operators that have faster readers, but times are comparable to the old way: presenting your "strippenkaart" to the driver and telling him where you want to go to so he can place the stamp in the right square.
But I suppose that compared to "everybody just boards through any door, and takes a seat immediately, without bothering even getting your ticket/pass out of your purse" it is still slower...
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Old September 22nd, 2013, 02:18 PM   #959
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Is open boarding on buses acceptable to the Dutch people? In the UK, as I said before, you have always had to pay the driver or show the ticket to the driver. Well, since conductors stopped being used. About 10 years ago, London introduced bendy buses for the first time, combined with the ability to board or alight from any door. London's buses were starting to get very crowded after strong passenger growth so bendy buses and open boarding was seen to be necessary for capacity reasons.

This was widely criticised for encouraging fare evasion, even though evasion was probably not that high. So the next (current) mayor vowed to scrap these buses at great expense. Fare evasion wasn't the only reason for the scrapping, but it was one of the factors. He has since introduced a new kind of open boarding bus ("New Bus for London") where you can board and alight at any door, but you must touch the Oyster card when boarding.

I suspect that smartcards boost patronage because you are not so aware of how much you are spending, especially if you top up your card automatically.

Last edited by radamfi; September 22nd, 2013 at 02:26 PM.
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Old September 22nd, 2013, 02:55 PM   #960
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Open boarding is very much frowned upon and discouraged, I don't even know of any places where they allow it but of course I haven't been to every corner of the country.
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