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Old September 25th, 2013, 01:37 AM   #981
AlexNL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
And you couldn't solve it like in most other cities with regular checks, steep fines and court appearances for repeat offenders?
Ticket inspectors are rarely seen in trams, on trains I get checked on average once or twice a week. As fines are rather low (for trains: price of the ride + € 35) it's simple math: what are the odds of getting caught as opposed to buying tickets? Apart from fines there are practically no ways of punishing repeat offenders, going to court for not having a valid ticket never happens.


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Originally Posted by radamfi View Post
People in the UK look enviably at London because of its Oyster smartcard and wish they had it there. They would be even more jealous of NL in having one for the entire country.
It's not that much of a blessing as it seems to be at first sight:
- The chipkaart costs € 7,50, which does not give you any credit whatsoever. The card expires after 5 years and the € 7,50 will not be reimbursed.
- A personal card can't be shared with others, even if you don't have any passes on it.
- You can't use it for more than one person.
- You'll need to have enough money on the card as the system deducts a bail at the start of your journey (dependant on operator) and calculates the total when you check out. If you plan to make only a very short trip, you'll need to have enough money for the bail. For trains, this can go up to € 20 per card.
- Everyone has to check-in and check-out, even pass holders. This is a burden compared to the old system where pass holders didn't have to do anything except board and alight on time.
- Forgetting to check-out can lead to lengthy procedures to get your money back
- A lot of formulas can't be offered on the 'Ow vee chip card', which results in hacky workarounds or - even worse - complete abolishment of good formulas.
- If your card stops working you'll have to go into long procedures to get a replacement card (the average turnaround time is 3 weeks), costs a lot of money (the replacement card costs a whopping € 11) and you will have to bear any travel costs incurred during those weeks. You can't recover these costs, even if you have a pass on your chipkaart.

For example: NS currently has a "2-to-1 overgang", this is a paper ticket which you can use to upgrade your 2nd class ticket or pass to 1st class. You enter the stations between which you want to travel 1st class, and you get charged the right amount.

With the OV-chipkaart, NS is changing this:
- If you travel 'op saldo', you can temporarily swap 2nd class to 1st class. This works just fine.
- If you have a pass, you only get the option to upgrade for the entire day. This costs € 15 (weekdays) or € 10 (weekends). If an upgrade for your trip costs only € 4, you're getting screwed over quite badly.


These are just a few defects of the OV-chipkaart system, which basically is not ready to be the only ticket in the Netherlands. In Limburg, Veolia started selling paper tickets again because they saw a huge decline in ridership when they went "chipkaart only".
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Old September 25th, 2013, 02:20 AM   #982
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People should not treat trains as some sort of extensions of the sidewalk where you just enter and sit as if you were going to a park. There ought to be physical and/or user-action barriers that clearly establishes a distinction that a train system is TRANSPORTATION, not some moving chair/sidewalk.
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Old September 25th, 2013, 02:24 AM   #983
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As long as the OV-chipkaart management is in the hands of people trying to make money off it, instead of a consumer-oriented board of some sorts, I doubt it will ever change into a consumer-friendly product.

At the very least they will need VERY strict government supervision and guidelines regarding consumer-friendliness. First thing I would advise them to do, is look at the Hong Kong Octopus card for some tips.
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Old September 25th, 2013, 02:41 AM   #984
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
- You'll need to have enough money on the card as the system deducts a bail at the start of your journey (dependant on operator) and calculates the total when you check out. If you plan to make only a very short trip, you'll need to have enough money for the bail. For trains, this can go up to € 20 per card.
You need the 20 euro on the card to use it on NS, but not the four euro for local transport. I have gone into negative balance countless times with the four euro thing when boarding. I have even gone into negative balance at the end of a trip a couple of times.
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Old September 25th, 2013, 07:45 AM   #985
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Seeing as taking trips for free was more the rule than the exception (for people in my area at least) back during the honor system, I can't agree with this.
Couldn't they just have more rigorous ticket inspections?
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Old September 25th, 2013, 07:54 AM   #986
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Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
Ticket inspectors are rarely seen in trams, on trains I get checked on average once or twice a week. As fines are rather low (for trains: price of the ride + € 35) it's simple math: what are the odds of getting caught as opposed to buying tickets? .
So you need to change the math.
At the one hand there is the tarif system. In Switzerland people are encouraged to buy passes. In my city for example about 80% of the population has a monthly or yearly pass.
The fine when caught without a ticket is about the price of such a monthly (city) pass. A second offense within two years and the fine gets higher. A third offense and you appear in court... It's possible to make the honor system work.
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Old September 25th, 2013, 07:56 AM   #987
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
People should not treat trains as some sort of extensions of the sidewalk where you just enter and sit as if you were going to a park. There ought to be physical and/or user-action barriers that clearly establishes a distinction that a train system is TRANSPORTATION, not some moving chair/sidewalk.
Any company should try to make its product as attractive and easy to use as possible. Why are you so dead set against the capitalist principles you normally espouse when it comes to public transit?
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Old September 25th, 2013, 09:13 AM   #988
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Couldn't they just have more rigorous ticket inspections?
Now THOSE would be a job creation program.

People simply walked out when they saw inspectors at a stop.

You would need large groups of inspectors + police to block all the exits, etc.
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Old September 25th, 2013, 12:06 PM   #989
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Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Now THOSE would be a job creation program.

People simply walked out when they saw inspectors at a stop.

You would need large groups of inspectors + police to block all the exits, etc.
It's what The Hague does. And it's successful here.
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Old September 25th, 2013, 07:26 PM   #990
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Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Now THOSE would be a job creation program.

People simply walked out when they saw inspectors at a stop.

You would need large groups of inspectors + police to block all the exits, etc.
The way I see it done here is: A team of six or eight inspectors boards through all doors simultaneously. People alighting while they board get checked, and then the whole vehicle gets checked before it reaches the next stop. They usually only have one team doing this, and it isn't even permanently operating...

On the trains it's usually just two persons, but these will often be railway police, so you'd better not mess with them.
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Old September 25th, 2013, 07:58 PM   #991
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HTM (The Hague) also does that, but as their trams are shorter a team of 4 inspectors suffices. I've seen exit checks near The Hague HS where inspectors sealed off a part of the platform (they have exit only platforms at The Hague HS, which are situated before the normal platforms) and checked everyone who left the tram.
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Old September 25th, 2013, 09:23 PM   #992
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Hmm... people already think the OV-chipkaart is too time consuming because of the checking-in and checking-out, but they wouldn't mind getting stopped trying to leave the tram, so they can be checked by conductors?

I find the former far less bothersome than the latter.
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Old September 25th, 2013, 09:25 PM   #993
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Old September 26th, 2013, 12:42 AM   #994
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Hmm... people already think the OV-chipkaart is too time consuming because of the checking-in and checking-out, but they wouldn't mind getting stopped trying to leave the tram, so they can be checked by conductors?

I find the former far less bothersome than the latter.
I find it weird that buying a ticket at a vending machine is not seen as time consuming...
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Old September 26th, 2013, 06:42 AM   #995
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Hmm... people already think the OV-chipkaart is too time consuming because of the checking-in and checking-out, but they wouldn't mind getting stopped trying to leave the tram, so they can be checked by conductors?

I find the former far less bothersome than the latter.
So you find getting your pass out several times a day less cumbersome than getting it out a few time per year?
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Old September 26th, 2013, 06:52 AM   #996
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I find it weird that buying a ticket at a vending machine is not seen as time consuming...
Most people who use public transit regularly will have a pass. If they don't, you need to fix your tariff system first... Anyway, the Dutch Railways have quite good ticket vending machines, and I prefer having a ticket I can read and check, then having a chip card that might, or might not, have done the right thing when I held it against the check in point.
Especially if NS starts to make it the norm that the onus is on the passenger if there is something wrong with the chip card.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 12:00 PM   #997
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These are just a few defects of the OV-chipkaart system, which basically is not ready to be the only ticket in the Netherlands. In Limburg, Veolia started selling paper tickets again because they saw a huge decline in ridership when they went "chipkaart only".
As far as I can tell, it has always been possible to get on the bus and pay in cash on any bus in the Netherlands. It just may cost a lot more. However I have noticed that in Groningen they actually actively advertise Eurokaartjes that you can buy on the bus. In many cases, they undercut the OV-Chipkaart fare.

The worst thing about the OV-Chipkaart from my perspective is that I used to like buying Zomerzwerftkaarten and landelijk dagkaart (2 x 8-strippenkaart bought on the bus) to get unlimited travel on the bus throughout the country, and now you can't. But I think that is mostly down to politics and wanting to increase the fares, and the fragmentation of the industry, rather than a shortcoming of the technology. They could easily sell a nationwide day ticket on a disposable smartcard like the single tickets in Amsterdam or Rotterdam.

Most companies (except Arriva for some reason) sell a day ticket for use on their own buses and that is on paper. I still buy a Connexxion Buzzer ticket at least once a year.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 12:33 PM   #998
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Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
- Everyone has to check-in and check-out, even pass holders. This is a burden compared to the old system where pass holders didn't have to do anything except board and alight on time.
- Forgetting to check-out can lead to lengthy procedures to get your money back
They still needed to show the ticket to the driver, and the driver probably didn't check the pass properly as it was flashed quickly in front of his face. The advantage of having passes on smartcard is that they can be checked for validity easily, although the photgraph isn't checked.

They should allow the passenger to go onto a website and enter where the trip was ended so he doesn't need to phone up to fix uncompleted trips. They do that with the London Oyster card.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 12:46 PM   #999
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They should allow the passenger to go onto a website and enter where the trip was ended so he doesn't need to phone up to fix uncompleted trips. They do that with the London Oyster card.
You can do that to some operators, I think.

I'm also in favor of outlawing any single paper ticket within Netherlands, for whatever reason. If tickets are to be sold by drivers, they should be like those disposable chipkaarts sold by GVB. No passenger transaction should happen without a OV-Chipkaart.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 01:05 PM   #1000
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I'm also in favor of outlawing any single paper ticket within Netherlands, for whatever reason. If tickets are to be sold by drivers, they should be like those disposable chipkaarts sold by GVB. No passenger transaction should happen without a OV-Chipkaart.
I can see the point in issuing day tickets or single tickets on disposable smartcards where you need to use them on subsequent buses/metros/trams. But a lot of them are 'ritkaarts' which are basically penalty fares as they are priced at a high rate and do not allow changing onto another bus.
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