daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old September 26th, 2013, 05:25 PM   #1001
radamfi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Crawley
Posts: 551
Likes (Received): 58

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
In Limburg, Veolia started selling paper tickets again because they saw a huge decline in ridership when they went "chipkaart only".
I just had a look at their paper tickets and they are not cheap. €2.50 for city and €4 for longer distance buses. Most people travelling shorter distances would be better off with an OV-Chipkaart. Some longer distance trips would be cheaper with the €4 paper ticket.

http://www.veolia-transport.nl/limbu...ten/index.html

Last edited by radamfi; September 26th, 2013 at 05:32 PM.
radamfi no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old September 26th, 2013, 05:36 PM   #1002
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21241

One would need to travel a lot to benefit from these prices. Moreover, different cities/provinces are introducing discount plans for urban local transportation as well...
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 26th, 2013, 05:57 PM   #1003
radamfi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Crawley
Posts: 551
Likes (Received): 58

The instaptarief is €0.86. The kilometertarief for Zuid-Limburg is €0.162/km and for the rest of Limburg it is €0.144. That means you need to travel 10.12 km in Zuid-Limburg (11.39 km in Noord and Midden) to be worth getting the €2.50 ticket and 19.38 km in Zuid-Limburg (21.81 km in Noord and Midden) for the €4 ticket.
radamfi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 26th, 2013, 06:41 PM   #1004
radamfi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Crawley
Posts: 551
Likes (Received): 58

The 2-Eurokaartje in Groningen/Drenthe is a bit better value with it being cheaper if the distance travelled is 7.55 km.

On the Arriva service from Groningen to Emmeloord, with a connection to Lelystad, the OV-Chipkaart fare is €22.88, whereas you can get a day return for €15 after 9 am Monday to Friday, anytime weekends and weekdays in July and August.
radamfi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2013, 12:01 AM   #1005
Silly_Walks
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,977
Likes (Received): 836

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
So you find getting your pass out several times a day less cumbersome than getting it out a few time per year?
A few times a year wouldn't deter 'zwartrijders'.
Silly_Walks no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2013, 01:46 AM   #1006
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I'm also in favor of outlawing any single paper ticket within Netherlands, for whatever reason. If tickets are to be sold by drivers, they should be like those disposable chipkaarts sold by GVB. No passenger transaction should happen without a OV-Chipkaart.
For single use tickets such as the ones sold on board on a bus, fitting those things with an RFID tag is pointless. The RFID tag would add significant charges to the price of a ticket while the ticket itself will be disposed of quickly after leaving the bus.

Only Amsterdam and Rotterdam sell single use tickets with integrated RFID chips, but that's because of the gated subway stations.
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2013, 08:06 AM   #1007
Proterra
Korpus niedyplomatyczny
 
Proterra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Kowaniec
Posts: 148
Likes (Received): 229

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
You can do that to some operators, I think.

I'm also in favor of outlawing any single paper ticket within Netherlands, for whatever reason. If tickets are to be sold by drivers, they should be like those disposable chipkaarts sold by GVB. No passenger transaction should happen without a OV-Chipkaart.
You're criminally insane. OV-Chipkaart in the Netherlands? The system where they keep track of your every move and store it in a database for two years?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favour of innovation, but the Netherlands must be the most effed-up country in Europe when it comes down to government involvement in people's private lives. I'm sure they would be happy to hand the files to the Americans or so if they would decide one they they wanted to know the whereabouts of Dutch Citizen X. on date Y. while he was speaking to person Z. on his cellphone. If any politician in Poland would ever come up with such a scheme, he should be shot on sight.

Back to a chipcard for public transportation; the system they use in Kraków is in my opinion quite good; a chipcard together with a photo-ID card which stores month passes and could be expanded to store a wider variety of passes and tickets. No need for checking in or checking out, the controller just holds the card to his or her reader and sees whether you have a valid ticket or not. It's also a fair system for visitors, because there is no personal data on the chip in the card itself, you can buy one on the spot and start using it, the whole process not taking more than 5 minutes if you have a picture for them to make your photo-ID.
Proterra no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2013, 08:28 AM   #1008
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21241

You can also buy anonymous OV-Chipkaarts in Netherlands.

The requirement to check in and out is essential to allow fine-grained data about usage of different lines and systems. For instance, during that last budget cut rounds in GVB they had discovered that they were overestimating the ridership of many bus lines and underestimating ridership of several tram lines.

With a requirement to check in and out, you can collect precise data not only about crowding of vehicles, but detailed travel patterns that allow you to program better your limited transportation resources.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!

Silly_Walks liked this post
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2013, 09:06 AM   #1009
Proterra
Korpus niedyplomatyczny
 
Proterra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Kowaniec
Posts: 148
Likes (Received): 229

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
You can also buy anonymous OV-Chipkaarts in Netherlands.

The requirement to check in and out is essential to allow fine-grained data about usage of different lines and systems. For instance, during that last budget cut rounds in GVB they had discovered that they were overestimating the ridership of many bus lines and underestimating ridership of several tram lines.

With a requirement to check in and out, you can collect precise data not only about crowding of vehicles, but detailed travel patterns that allow you to program better your limited transportation resources.
You don't need to have any personal data on the card itself to mine statistics...
Proterra no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2013, 09:29 AM   #1010
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proterra View Post
You don't need to have any personal data on the card itself to mine statistics...
You don't even need chip cards. It's perfectly possible to automatically count passengers.
__________________

Dooie_Amsterdammert liked this post
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2013, 09:37 AM   #1011
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
A few times a year wouldn't deter 'zwartrijders'.
In Switzerland getting caught without a ticket several times a year will cost you more then a yearly PT pass would have cost you. And you end up with a criminal record, with all the disadvantages that entails...

Given how low the number of fare evaders are it does appear to work...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2013, 09:45 AM   #1012
Theijs
Registered User
 
Theijs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 418
Likes (Received): 133

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
In Switzerland getting caught without a ticket several times a year will cost you more then a yearly PT pass would have cost you.
In Brussels they have a progressive fine system: it starts with something like €85, next time (within 2 years) it doubles to 170 and so on...
Theijs no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2013, 11:56 AM   #1013
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21241

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
You don't even need chip cards. It's perfectly possible to automatically count passengers.
But you can't properly identify the total trip data, only individual use at vehicles/lines. With OV-Chipkaart it is possible to gather precise information on total trips, whatever public transportation lines/services are used to complete them.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2013, 01:46 PM   #1014
Proterra
Korpus niedyplomatyczny
 
Proterra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Kowaniec
Posts: 148
Likes (Received): 229

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
But you can't properly identify the total trip data, only individual use at vehicles/lines. With OV-Chipkaart it is possible to gather precise information on total trips, whatever public transportation lines/services are used to complete them.
But what does personal data have to do with trip data? And besides that, with paper tickets one can also gather rather precise data on total trips - no one is going to buy a ticket they're not going to use.
Proterra no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2013, 01:46 PM   #1015
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theijs View Post
In Brussels they have a progressive fine system: it starts with something like €85, next time (within 2 years) it doubles to 170 and so on...
In Switzerland it's 100 chf for a first and second offense. The third and subsequent times you will have to appear in court. And that is where it quickly becomes expensive.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2013, 02:10 PM   #1016
3737
Registered User
 
3737's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Leiden
Posts: 1,406
Likes (Received): 1036

I think another problem is that in the train they almost don't check the OV-chipcards. For my internship I used to use the train for a year between Leiden and Delft but I think they only checked my card 5 times in 1 a whole year!
Because I'm a student it is free so I always check in to use the public transport but a retour between Delft and Leiden normal price 2nd class is 9,20. If you use it for 47 weeks (5 weeks vacation) for 5 days a week it will cost you around 2162 euros per year and with 40% discount (5,60 retour) it will cost you 1316 euro per year. It is even cheaper to get caught. Of course mostly during rush hour it is to crowded to check but in most occasions they close the door and they just sit in first class doing nothing. Why the hell would you even bother to check in ?
3737 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2013, 02:19 PM   #1017
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599

The few times that I have used the train in the Netherlands I did see conductors walking by with a little device to check those chip cards...
Road_UK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2013, 02:49 PM   #1018
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21241

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proterra View Post
But what does personal data have to do with trip data? And besides that, with paper tickets one can also gather rather precise data on total trips - no one is going to buy a ticket they're not going to use.
I'd agree to have plans loaded onto anonymous chipkaarts (except those that require a qualification like study or old age).

People can buy tickets and use at a later time. Moreover, you can track movements that involve also urban transportation, and you couldn't track itineraries on urban transportation at all with the strippenkaart.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2013, 06:28 PM   #1019
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3737 View Post
I think another problem is that in the train they almost don't check the OV-chipcards. For my internship I used to use the train for a year between Leiden and Delft but I think they only checked my card 5 times in 1 a whole year! Because I'm a student it is free so I always check in to use the public transport but a retour between Delft and Leiden normal price 2nd class is 9,20. If you use it for 47 weeks (5 weeks vacation) for 5 days a week it will cost you around 2162 euros per year and with 40% discount (5,60 retour) it will cost you 1316 euro per year. It is even cheaper to get caught. Of course mostly during rush hour it is to crowded to check but in most occasions they close the door and they just sit in first class doing nothing. Why the hell would you even bother to check in ?
If you don't mind appearing in court ever year or so you can indeed systematically travel without a ticket. It won't be cheap however.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2013, 06:32 PM   #1020
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I'd agree to have plans loaded onto anonymous chipkaarts (except those that require a qualification like study or old age). People can buy tickets and use at a later time. Moreover, you can track movements that involve also urban transportation, and you couldn't track itineraries on urban transportation at all with the strippenkaart.
There is no need for that. You don't need to track everyone's movements. You only need to know the movements of a representative sample, and you can extrapolate from that. SBB for example has gotten pretty good at predicting the number of people that will be on a train, to the point that they will plan in extra trains at short notice. If NS has better data thanks to the OV chipcard they don't appear to be making much use of it.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium