daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old November 20th, 2013, 09:08 AM   #1061
M-NL
Mixed-mode traveller
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,157
Likes (Received): 274

The Dutch 2nd chamber of parliament has adopted a proposal to urge NS to acquire faster (200+ km/h) rolling stock for intercity services. I wonder if they've taken into account all the funds needed for the switch to ERTMS, an overhead voltage raise, removal of level crossings and all other issues that must be solved before you can run trains faster. Probably not, because these plans have existed at least for the last 30 years, but were never effected.
__________________
Public transport: Mode of transport that takes to much time to take you from the place you're not currently located, to the place you didn't want to go to, at a time that doesn't really suit you.
M-NL no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old November 20th, 2013, 10:53 AM   #1062
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

NS doesn't want to have a huge fleet of 220 kph capable rolling stock as that would be expensive and pointless, but NS doesn't want a small fleet either as this adds complexity and incurs additional costs. That makes perfect sense when looking from a NS point of view.

That doesn't mean the Chamber should accept this. They're free to find alternative solutions if NS is unwilling.
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2013, 12:05 PM   #1063
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,462
Likes (Received): 6152

The Chamber should have come up with this idea in the 1990s when they could still choose between a pointless high speed railway or a general upgrade of the main network to 200km/h.

Now they're just being silly.
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2013, 02:15 PM   #1064
M-NL
Mixed-mode traveller
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,157
Likes (Received): 274

In the end it's all a question of money. If the government does not come up with the money to improve infrastructure for faster running and force the users to actually use it, its users will not make any effort, because they are commercially run businesses after all.
__________________
Public transport: Mode of transport that takes to much time to take you from the place you're not currently located, to the place you didn't want to go to, at a time that doesn't really suit you.
M-NL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2013, 07:59 PM   #1065
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
The Chamber should have come up with this idea in the 1990s when they could still choose between a pointless high speed railway or a general upgrade of the main network to 200km/h.

Now they're just being silly.
The northern section (between Rotterdam and Schiphol) is very useful since it provides direct connections between Rotterdam and Schiphol, thereby slashing journey times and allowing for more capacity on the route via The Hague. Unfortunately the decision was made to build that section as a true high speed railway which made it very expensive and complicates running trains on it.

If the northern section were to be built according to a standard Dutch railway such as the Hanzelijn (meaning designed for 200 kph, train protection provided by ATB and powered on 1,5 kV) it would've been much more useful as less purpose built rolling stock would have been necessary.

It looks like NS doesn't care about what the Chamber wants, according to NRC NS has said that it is 'very difficult' to acquire rolling stock capable of more than 200 kph and to get them in service from 2018. NRC also states that NS is not really interested in that kind of rolling stock.

If this is NS' official stance on the Chamber's wishes, I think the conclusion is pretty clear: the plan as put forward by NS has to be declared unacceptable and a termination and re-tendering of the HSL-Zuid concession is the only way forward.
__________________
We are shaping the future

Slagathor liked this post
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2013, 09:16 PM   #1066
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,532
Likes (Received): 21239

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
If this is NS' official stance on the Chamber's wishes, I think the conclusion is pretty clear: the plan as put forward by NS has to be declared unacceptable and a termination and re-tendering of the HSL-Zuid concession is the only way forward.
I agree.

If NS doesn't want to operate domestic and Belgium-bound high-speed services on a high-speed line, revoke the concession and put it on tender for someone who wants to do so.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2013, 09:10 AM   #1067
M-NL
Mixed-mode traveller
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,157
Likes (Received): 274

Arriva already expressed the possibilities it could offer, including 200 km/h service in 2016 and faster services a few years later. The state secretary of transport flat out refused it.

The difficult relation between NS and the ministry of transport is under European scrutiny right now. I hope they will conclude unjust state aid and require re-tendering.
__________________
Public transport: Mode of transport that takes to much time to take you from the place you're not currently located, to the place you didn't want to go to, at a time that doesn't really suit you.
M-NL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2013, 05:43 PM   #1068
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
If the northern section were to be built according to a standard Dutch railway such as the Hanzelijn (meaning designed for 200 kph, train protection provided by ATB and powered on 1,5 kV) it would've been much more useful as less purpose built rolling stock would have been necessary.
They should also have build a station on the line for Zoetermeer. Maybe they still will...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2013, 05:50 PM   #1069
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,532
Likes (Received): 21239

They should NOT have built the line between Hoofdorp and Rotterdam using an old, to-be-phased-out-in-the-future standard. It would have limited the travel time gain of the high-speed trains that are using the line (aka Thalys and Eurostar within 3 years), adding another 4 minutes to total travel time.

The decision to use ERTMS was a wise one, and so was the use of higher design standards.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2013, 06:00 PM   #1070
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599

It has been there for donkey years, even way before you moved into the country, and there was any mention of high speed lines in the first place.
Road_UK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2013, 06:02 PM   #1071
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,532
Likes (Received): 21239

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
It has been there for donkey years, even way before you moved into the country, and there was any mention of high speed lines in the first place.
The line between Rotterdam and Hoodfdorp was put in service in 2009.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2013, 08:48 AM   #1072
M-NL
Mixed-mode traveller
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,157
Likes (Received): 274

All over the world (Eastern Europe, India, Japan to name a few) lines are being modernised from several voltages and ATC systems to 25 kV and modern ATCs. They also switch to faster multi system rolling stock. If it can be done elsewhere, why do they make things so difficult in the Netherlands?
__________________
Public transport: Mode of transport that takes to much time to take you from the place you're not currently located, to the place you didn't want to go to, at a time that doesn't really suit you.
M-NL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2013, 12:00 PM   #1073
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,462
Likes (Received): 6152

Because we always have to reinvent the wheel, like with the stupid OV-Chipkaart.
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2013, 12:19 PM   #1074
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

Switching from 1.5 kV AC to 25 kV DC will also have an impact on various works such as viaducts (additional clearance needed) and it will cause problems due to electromagnetic disturbance. As the current overhead line system is not prepared for 25 kV (substations, overhead line suspension, etc) changing a section (such as Zwolle - Groningen) to 25 kV basically comes down to full re-electrification, which takes months.

The benefit will be small compared to the costs and troubles caused. It will be much easier to go to 3 kV (as used in Poland, Belgium, Portugal and Italy among others) while this also gives benefits.
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2013, 02:58 PM   #1075
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

Countries with DC current are developing 25 kV just on new HSLs, there are no real projects of general conversions... In Italy it's being discussed but it's not going to happen in years, too complicated. And we already had a general change of system, in the 70s.

Switching to 3 kV DC would be a wise move: not a lot to be rebuilt, but some decent advantages (we go 250 km/h on that, with special equipment, and 200-220 on normal lines).
NL would also have access to a broader market of rolling stock, developed for bigger countries with a HS system (Italy, Spain, and Poland will come). Look at Poland: it needed fast trains in a short time, and the Pendolinos were ready...
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2013, 03:17 PM   #1076
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,532
Likes (Received): 21239

3kV DC is a standard of the 1920s. If 1,5kV is deemed inadequate, better go directly to 25 kC AC.

Aren't there solutions that would allow 25kV AC on current clearances?

More important than current, though, is the adoption of ERTMS and phase out of ATB. Most lines in the country could easily accommodate 200 km/h traffic (flat, few curves) but outdated ATB will not allow anything over 130 km/h.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!

Silly_Walks liked this post
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2013, 03:51 PM   #1077
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

I'll quote Alex again, it seems you skipped the parts you didn't like

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
Switching from 1.5 kV AC to 25 kV DC will also have an impact on various works such as viaducts (additional clearance needed) and it will cause problems due to electromagnetic disturbance. As the current overhead line system is not prepared for 25 kV (substations, overhead line suspension, etc) changing a section (such as Zwolle - Groningen) to 25 kV basically comes down to full re-electrification, which takes months.
Switching to 25 kV means completely rebuilding the electrical network of Dutch railways, from scratch. With 3 kV existing structures can be reused.

Same for the trains: during the conversion you'll need dual system trains; adding 3 kV capabilities to 1,5 kV existing trains is a thing, turning them into 25 kV is such a complicated job that for most existing trains would probably not be economically feasible...

A standard may be of the 1720s, but as long as it works... and 3 kV works, a lot of research has been and is being done on it.

(actually the system is kept at 3,6 kV)
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2013, 05:16 PM   #1078
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
Switching from 1.5 kV AC to 25 kV DC will also have an impact on various works such as viaducts (additional clearance needed) and it will cause problems due to electromagnetic disturbance. As the current overhead line system is not prepared for 25 kV (substations, overhead line suspension, etc) changing a section (such as Zwolle - Groningen) to 25 kV basically comes down to full re-electrification, which takes months.

The benefit will be small compared to the costs and troubles caused. It will be much easier to go to 3 kV (as used in Poland, Belgium, Portugal and Italy among others) while this also gives benefits.
I actually think that gradually moving to 25lV will be easier than moving to 3Kv. For one thing it's easier to add 25kV capability to existing rolling stock. For another, electrifying at 25kV AC is cheaper. That is why SNCF has been doing all new electrifications at 25kV AC, even in 1,5 kV territory...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2013, 05:20 PM   #1079
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Switching to 25 kV means completely rebuilding the electrical network of Dutch railways, from scratch. With 3 kV existing structures can be reused.
Actually there is no reason why you couldn't reuse the structures when moving to 25kV. The catenary will be lighter. You will need to swap out the insulators though. However, if you're going to do this, you can as well replace everything. It is indeed a big job. Geneve - Bellegarde is being converted from 1,5 Kv to 25 Kv, and this will, amongst other things, entail a complete closure for the duration of a month.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2013, 05:22 PM   #1080
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
More important than current, though, is the adoption of ERTMS and phase out of ATB. Most lines in the country could easily accommodate 200 km/h traffic (flat, few curves) but outdated ATB will not allow anything over 130 km/h.
Moving from ATB to ERTMS has disadvantages too. ATB is actually quite a sophisticated system, very suitable for a high traffic density network like that of NS. And it's not because a line is straight that you can travel at 200kph over it.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium