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Old November 23rd, 2013, 06:23 PM   #1081
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Quote:
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Moving from ATB to ERTMS has disadvantages too. ATB is actually quite a sophisticated system, very suitable for a high traffic density network like that of NS. And it's not because a line is straight that you can travel at 200kph over it.
ERTMS is superior to any other system when fully deployed, and unbeatable on its third specification.

If you have a straight and plane ROW, it is much cheaper to, over time, fix other stuff needed to run trains at 200 km/h like the trackbed. Not cheap, not doable overnight, but much easier than when you need a new ROW.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 07:53 PM   #1082
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ERTMS is superior to any other system when fully deployed, and unbeatable on its third specification. If you have a straight and plane ROW, it is much cheaper to, over time, fix other stuff needed to run trains at 200 km/h like the trackbed. Not cheap, not doable overnight, but much easier than when you need a new ROW.
You obviously don't have a clue what you are talking about.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 08:58 PM   #1083
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You obviously don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Could you at the very least explain why you are saying this? That sort of message doesn't add anything to the topic apart from your personal opinion right now...

I don't know about how ATB and ETCS shape up against each other, but I do know that the long term plans in Belgium are to transform all lines to ETCS. The balises being placed right now only support TBL1+, which is specific to Belgium, but those same balises can relatively easily be reprogrammed to support ETCS.

Also, isn't it so that the more balises are placed, the more accurate the clearances stay for trains, allowing a bigger throughput? With the radio-based clearances being the best, of course. (I could be wrong here)
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Old November 24th, 2013, 11:13 AM   #1084
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Countries with DC current are developing 25 kV just on new HSLs, there are no real projects of general conversions... In Italy it's being discussed but it's not going to happen in years, too complicated. And we already had a general change of system, in the 70s.
AFAIK Czech republic is migrating all their railways to 25kV. There are other countries thinking about it as well, however there is a long way to go from thinking to actual decisions.
And what was the general change in the 70's if all the other countries have more modern and more universal systems? Why wasn't it decided to go to 3kV back then?

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Switching to 3 kV DC would be a wise move: not a lot to be rebuilt, but some decent advantages (we go 250 km/h on that, with special equipment, and 200-220 on normal lines).
NL would also have access to a broader market of rolling stock, developed for bigger countries with a HS system (Italy, Spain, and Poland will come). Look at Poland: it needed fast trains in a short time, and the Pendolinos were ready...
Well, Penodolino can run on 1.5kV as well. Poland however had to rebuild a little bit their 3kV sections of HS for Pendolino, denser power stations and some other stuff. The Pendolino tests yesterday set the new speed record for Poland - 292 km/h.
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Old November 24th, 2013, 12:12 PM   #1085
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glodenox View Post
Could you at the very least explain why you are saying this? That sort of message doesn't add anything to the topic apart from your personal opinion right now... I don't know about how ATB and ETCS shape up against each other, but I do know that the long term plans in Belgium are to transform all lines to ETCS. The balises being placed right now only support TBL1+, which is specific to Belgium, but those same balises can relatively easily be reprogrammed to support ETCS. Also, isn't it so that the more balises are placed, the more accurate the clearances stay for trains, allowing a bigger throughput? With the radio-based clearances being the best, of course. (I could be wrong here)
One of the advantages of ATB is that it communicates constantly with the train. So if a signal changes to a less restrictive aspect a train approaching it can accelerate immediately to a higher speed, and doesn't have to wait till it passes over the next balise. ATB is actually a very good system.
That is why for the Dutch railways migrating to ETCS L1 might actually lead to a lower capacity of the network. ETCS L2 would be an improvement, and that is probably what might end up being done. SBB is planning to convert the whole network to ETCS L2 as well.
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Old November 24th, 2013, 12:25 PM   #1086
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Quote:
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And what was the general change in the 70's if all the other countries have more modern and more universal systems? Why wasn't it decided to go to 3kV back then?
We = Italy, not NL Italy had part of its network based on a weird 3,6 kV AC 3-phase 2-cable system... it was all dismissed in 1976, after a conversion process which meant a complete rebuilding.

During the conversion there were such situations:


The train on the right was fitted for both systems.

I guess swithing from 1,5 to 3 would be easier than 25, because infrastructure and trains would need less work on them. Yes, the 25 kV cable is lighter, but it needs a higher insulation space from other structures, which the existing masts and substations may not guarantee.

Actually I'm more worried about trains that infra: the Dutch network, despite being dense, is not enormous... but a lot of rolling stock would be needed, during the conversion.
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Old November 24th, 2013, 01:09 PM   #1087
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grzegorz.Janoszka View Post
AFAIK Czech republic is migrating all their railways to 25kV. There are other countries thinking about it as well, however there is a long way to go from thinking to actual decisions.
And what was the general change in the 70's if all the other countries have more modern and more universal systems? Why wasn't it decided to go to 3kV back then?
Back in 60s, there was a rapid advance of mass-produced rectiferes and other AC electrics, so it become possible to make relatively cheap and durable standat-frequency-AC loco.
Before that it was kind of dilemma - either railway choose simple and durable DC locos and builds tons of substations and thicker catenary, or low-frequency AC and builds conversion stations (standard frequency->low frequency) and/or low-frequency power-plants, or go for standard frequency AC, wich don't need all that stuff, but turning locomotives into state-of-art and hell-expensive breakthrough machinery.
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Old November 24th, 2013, 05:11 PM   #1088
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Quote:
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One of the advantages of ATB is that it communicates constantly with the train. So if a signal changes to a less restrictive aspect a train approaching it can accelerate immediately to a higher speed, and doesn't have to wait till it passes over the next balise. ATB is actually a very good system.
That is why for the Dutch railways migrating to ETCS L1 might actually lead to a lower capacity of the network. ETCS L2 would be an improvement, and that is probably what might end up being done. SBB is planning to convert the whole network to ETCS L2 as well.
Ah, I wasn't aware that ATB also communicates directly to the trains. I just looked it up and ATB seems to use the rails to transmit the clearance information. Even so, I don't think ETCS Level 2 is really necessary everywhere (always welcome, obviously, but not a necessity). On many stretches Level 1 would be more than sufficient and I could understand that choice if it is cheaper to implement. But if a certain stretch is really used very often, I'm sure they'll realise they need to opt for Level 2.
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Old November 24th, 2013, 05:41 PM   #1089
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ERTMS 2 is superior to ATB in terms of capabilities for busy railways.

As for 25kV AC eletrification, they could start with some dead-end routes like the lines Mappel-Leeuwarden/Groningen, or the Rosendaal-Vlissingen link.

60Hz AC is much easier to manage, you can draw it from the electrical grid.
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Old November 24th, 2013, 10:24 PM   #1090
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60Hz AC is much easier to manage, you can draw it from the electrical grid.
I assume you mean 50Hz.
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Old November 24th, 2013, 10:51 PM   #1091
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Is there any news yet on the proposal to replace paper tickets with disposable smartcards?
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Old November 25th, 2013, 12:06 AM   #1092
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Is there any news yet on the proposal to replace paper tickets with disposable smartcards?
I think most transactions already happen with the OV-Chipkaart. Paper ticket use is declining fast.
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Old November 25th, 2013, 01:11 AM   #1093
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Paper ticket use is declining, indeed, but that is also because NS is making it very hard to avoid the OV-chipkaart. Many products have been either abolished altogether (such as the round trip ticket or a day pass) or have already been moved to the chipkaart. The 'trajectabonnement' (a pass which allows unlimited travel between two stations) is the last one to be moved to the chipkaart.
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Old November 25th, 2013, 06:06 AM   #1094
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Round-trip tickets offered a discount that was applied to all fares at the time reizen-op-saldo (pay-as-you-go) was unveiled. So it it like all journeys started costed half the price of a round-trip one.

Moreover, the maximum price for any train journey was set at half the price of a day-pass.

The only group who lost here were the small number of people making sporadic triangular long journeys in the same day.
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Old November 25th, 2013, 10:05 AM   #1095
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Round trip tickets were interesting as they gave you the advantage of ongoing tariff degression: the three trips were counted as one, which is cheaper than two tickets. They were used rarely if I go by my experiences: a strange look from a ticket inspector when I handed him a ticket 'From Breda to Breda (via Delft and Eindhoven)'
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Old November 25th, 2013, 10:19 AM   #1096
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Quote:
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Paper ticket use is declining, indeed, but that is also because NS is making it very hard to avoid the OV-chipkaart. Many products have been either abolished altogether (such as the round trip ticket or a day pass) or have already been moved to the chipkaart. The 'trajectabonnement' (a pass which allows unlimited travel between two stations) is the last one to be moved to the chipkaart.
Actually after some years without, I started to use paper tickets again. How else am I supposed to grant 40% discount to people traveling with me?
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Old November 25th, 2013, 01:07 PM   #1097
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That is also possible with the OV-chipkaart. Before checking in, have the people who are travelling with you go to a ticket vending machine. Have them load the product 'Samenreiskorting' onto their card. Upon check-in they will get the discounted tariff.

They'll have to do it again for the next trip.
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Old November 25th, 2013, 02:00 PM   #1098
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One of the advantages of ATB is that it communicates constantly with the train. So if a signal changes to a less restrictive aspect a train approaching it can accelerate immediately to a higher speed, and doesn't have to wait till it passes over the next balise.
That is why for the Dutch railways migrating to ETCS L1 might actually lead to a lower capacity of the network.
While this statement may have been true 5 to 10 years ago and thus made a transition to at least L2 a necesity, this isn't true anymore. In the meantime L1 has been extended with Euroloop and, even more important, radio infill. Radio infill is basically the same as the L2 air interface, but is only used in case a train should have an information update in between balises. For normal operation the balises are used to communicate with the train.

Thus the only difference between L1 and L2 is the way the infrastructure communicates with the train.
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Old November 25th, 2013, 09:44 PM   #1099
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Bottom line is that migrating to ERTMS L1 would be too much effort for a small profit. Strictly seen the Dutch network is slowly upgraded to ERTMS L3, but Level 2 is used until Level 3 is completed.
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Old November 25th, 2013, 11:10 PM   #1100
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If you have an inclusive rail/ferry ticket from London to Any Dutch Station, using the Hoek van Holland to Harwich ferry, what routes are you allowed to use in NL? For example, are you allowed to go Hoek van Holland - Rotterdam - Schiphol (via Fyra)? Or Hoek van Holland - Schiedam - Amsterdam - Maastricht? Or are you only allowed a proper direct route?
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