daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 9th, 2013, 01:02 PM   #1141
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21241

Quote:
Originally Posted by radamfi View Post
Wow, that's quite a bombshell to me. For years I have been posting on British forums that they should follow the Dutch/Swiss example of carefully planned connections that wait a few minutes in case of delays. Now it seems that the Dutch have copied the British!
The problem is that you have competing goals. If you hold up trains on some stations, it will just cascade these effects elsewhere.

The ultimate solution is: run your train on time.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old December 9th, 2013, 01:27 PM   #1142
radamfi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Crawley
Posts: 551
Likes (Received): 58

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The problem is that you have competing goals. If you hold up trains on some stations, it will just cascade these effects elsewhere.
That's what the British National Rail timetable has stated for at least 20 years:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%...nformation.pdf (page 6)

Quote:
"Connections between trains cannot be guaranteed. The nature of the integrated operation of railway passenger services
means that to delay one train to await customers from a late running train arriving at a station may cause significant
disruption to many other customers when they make connections at other stations along the route. Every endeavour
is made to minimise the total disruption and particular attention is given to services operating infrequently and the last
train services each day.

The aim of all Train Operating Companies is to run punctually; inevitably some disruption occurs from time to time. When
planning a journey you may wish to consider the effects which any disruption could have and to allow some contingency
margin when planning connections"
The problem is that you have effectively reduced the frequency on Dutch trains to those where direct trains exist. For example, according to the timetable, Utrecht to Groningen is every 30 minutes, either direct or changing at Zwolle. However, if you now assume that trains won't wait, you will only want to get the direct train, meaning the effective frequency is now every hour.

The Dutch situation is worse because there is such a short wait between the connections so they are easy to miss. At least in Britain you have 'minimum connection times' so only those connections where the gap between trains is larger than the minimum connection time will be offered.

You also now have the issue of some important routes not having direct trains, such as Amsterdam C to Groningen, as you can't rely on the connection now.
radamfi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2013, 01:34 PM   #1143
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21241

But how often do trains miss connections? I don't think that happens often. They probably hold up local Sprinter trains to make way for IC trains if that is the case.

Just because a connection isn't guaranteed doesn't mean it is missed every time.

I think trains will wait each other in Venlo and Zwolle, where there are cross-platform schemes.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2013, 01:40 PM   #1144
M-NL
Mixed-mode traveller
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,158
Likes (Received): 274

The stupidest thing they ever did in my opinion was to change the old system where there was a intercity Hoofddorp/Amsterdam-Enschede(or Berlin every 2 hours) and Rotterdam/The Hague-Groningen/Leeuwarden each hour and also an intercity Hoofddorp/Amsterdam-Groningen/Leeuwarden and Rotterdam/The Hague-Enschede each hour shifted half an hour from the other service (so effecively 2 intercities each hour). That made sense and had worked perfectly for at least 25 years.
__________________
Public transport: Mode of transport that takes to much time to take you from the place you're not currently located, to the place you didn't want to go to, at a time that doesn't really suit you.
M-NL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2013, 01:49 PM   #1145
radamfi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Crawley
Posts: 551
Likes (Received): 58

I guess that had to change because of the new Lelystad to Zwolle line.
radamfi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2013, 02:43 PM   #1146
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21241

Just because something has worked for 30 years doesn't mean it can't be changed.

There is the Hanzelijn, which shifted Amsterdam=>Zwolle traffic to Lelystad, removing connections in Amersfoort.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2013, 02:57 PM   #1147
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599

Quote:
Originally Posted by radamfi View Post
Why don't Dutch trains accept Visa/Mastercard at most stations? I can understand that they don't want to pay the transaction fees charged by the banks, but they could offer Visa/Mastercard at all stations like they do at Schiphol for an extra charge. Some countries don't issue Maestro cards very much, if at all. Also petrol/gas stations in NL seem to have no problem accepting Visa/Mastercard.
The Dutch are running a bit behind the times when it comes to credit card payments. Even in shops, supermarkets and restaurants it hasn't really kicked in.
Road_UK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2013, 03:40 PM   #1148
radamfi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Crawley
Posts: 551
Likes (Received): 58

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
The Dutch are running a bit behind the times when it comes to credit card payments. Even in shops, supermarkets and restaurants it hasn't really kicked in.
But the Dutch are very good at accepting DEBIT cards as opposed to credit cards. They had their PIN systems before most other countries. I can fully understand not accepting credit cards because of the fees, but why don't NS accept Visa and Mastercard DEBIT cards?
radamfi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2013, 08:32 AM   #1149
M-NL
Mixed-mode traveller
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,158
Likes (Received): 274

Quote:
Originally Posted by radamfi View Post
I guess that had to change because of the new Lelystad to Zwolle line.
They changed it a few years ago with the argument to create a more robust time table.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Just because something has worked for 30 years doesn't mean it can't be changed.
I'm not against change at all, but change should make things better, not worse. You be the judge: It used to possible to travel from Twente to Amsterdam twice an hour, once direct, once with 1 change at Amersfoort, with a traveltime of roughly 1h45m. Nowadays direct is only possible once every 2 hours, otherwise up to 3 changes are required and travel time has increased by up to 25 minutes. In fact for most itineraries from Twente to the west a lot more changes are needed and travel time has increased.
__________________
Public transport: Mode of transport that takes to much time to take you from the place you're not currently located, to the place you didn't want to go to, at a time that doesn't really suit you.
M-NL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2013, 10:16 PM   #1150
Theijs
Registered User
 
Theijs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 418
Likes (Received): 133

Quote:
Originally Posted by radamfi View Post
Why don't NS accept Visa and Mastercard DEBIT cards?
ask NS via Twitter: @ns_online
I know their are paranoia for fraud...
Theijs no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2013, 11:33 PM   #1151
radamfi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Crawley
Posts: 551
Likes (Received): 58

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theijs View Post
ask NS via Twitter: @ns_online
I know their are paranoia for fraud...
Are Visa and Mastercard debit cards any more prone to fraud compared to Maestro debit cards, which NS accept?
radamfi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2013, 12:35 AM   #1152
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

I think it has to do with associated costs offset against the low amount of people using it. Dutch people have bank cards that support Maestro. Foreigners can go to a ticket window to buy a ticket, and paying a € 0.50 surcharge for it!

Customer friendly? Nope.

I guess it's their way of saying "Welcome to Dutch Railways!" I suppose...
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2013, 08:48 AM   #1153
M-NL
Mixed-mode traveller
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,158
Likes (Received): 274

Maestro = Mastercard.
__________________
Public transport: Mode of transport that takes to much time to take you from the place you're not currently located, to the place you didn't want to go to, at a time that doesn't really suit you.
M-NL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2013, 08:57 AM   #1154
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21241

PIN system in Netherlands is a national network separated from Maestro/Mastercard/Eurocard or Cirrus/Visa networks.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2013, 10:07 AM   #1155
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

The old PIN system was switched off when the magstripe was replaced with an EMV chip. Dutch banks nowadays use Maestro (most banks) or V Pay (SNS).
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2013, 10:35 AM   #1156
radamfi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Crawley
Posts: 551
Likes (Received): 58

Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
Maestro = Mastercard.
Maestro is owned by Mastercard, however Maestro cards and Mastercards are not necessarily accepted in the same places.
radamfi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2013, 10:50 AM   #1157
duongpm006
Registered User
 
duongpm006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2
Likes (Received): 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxx☢Power View Post
You think this:

[IMG]http://i36.************/30280sg.jpg[/IMG]

looks "fatter" than this?

Yes, i think that!
duongpm006 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2013, 11:20 AM   #1158
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21241

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
The old PIN system was switched off when the magstripe was replaced with an EMV chip. Dutch banks nowadays use Maestro (most banks) or V Pay (SNS).
Didn't know that the chip-based cards were no longer PIN.

I still get PIN or Maestro as options to pick when I use my card in certain places.

The Dutch also had the Chipknip system, a portable chip-stored offline wallet system. It didn't require a password.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2013, 12:48 PM   #1159
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

Chipknip still exists but will be phased out in 2015 due to declining usage. Meanwhile tests are being carried out to pay with an OV-chipkaart, and contactless payment is on its way as well.
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2013, 01:32 PM   #1160
M-NL
Mixed-mode traveller
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,158
Likes (Received): 274

Quote:
Originally Posted by radamfi View Post
Maestro is owned by Mastercard, however Maestro cards and Mastercards are not necessarily accepted in the same places.
You're right. I only meant that Meastro is a brand name for Mastercard debit cards, not that their credit and debit cards were interchangable (as you state, they're not).
__________________
Public transport: Mode of transport that takes to much time to take you from the place you're not currently located, to the place you didn't want to go to, at a time that doesn't really suit you.
M-NL no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium