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Old December 11th, 2013, 02:01 PM   #1161
M-NL
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Did some reading on ERTMS over the last few days. A few interesting points I've come across in a capacity evaluation report and a Dutch progress report:
  • In most cases the number of trains L2 can handle exceeds L1 by at least 20%
  • Exception: GSM-R capacity on busy lines and nodes limits capacity when heavily used (major issue)
  • Hardware changes are needed for temporary speed restriction in L1, which is especially difficult in case of conditional restrictions (switches leading to a speed restriction)
  • Temporary speed restrictions in L2 are just entries in a computer and are transmitted by GSM-R if that section is part of a trains route
  • ERTMS L1 and L2 are considered mature for main line use
  • L1 has been used on a large nodes
  • No projects with L2 on a large node has yet been completed
  • Shunting remains a problem, in particular when it's unclear where the front of the train is when a locomotive pushes cars
  • Rolling stock should be equipped with ERTMS+STM as soon as practically possible
  • For most main lines L2 is the aspired route
  • For regional line L1 with radio infill is cheaper and may suffice
  • ATB-EG should be migrated first, ATB-NG can follow later
  • The ERTMS specification on the detail level is not detailed enough yet, making it difficult to mix different vendors
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Old December 11th, 2013, 03:10 PM   #1162
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Dutch railways order 19 new Traxx locomotives

The Dutch Railways have decided to order 19 new Traxx MS locomotives (DE/AT/BE/NL configuration) for its passenger services that will include the high speed line (HSL-Zuid) in the Netherlands. Loco-hauled trains will be the short term alternative for the long planned domestic services that should have been running with the now troubled V250-trains from AnsaldoBreda. These are now topic of a dispute between NS and the Italian manufacturer.
Delivery of the 19 new machines is planned for the end of 2014. They will be operated on the relations Amsterdam – Rotterdam (as of December 2014) and The Hague - Eindhoven (as of december 2015) via the HSL. The new name for these trains will be most likely Intercity Direct. This name replaces the Fyra brand next week. Their top speed will be 160 kph.

The Traxx MS is already approved for both the Dutch conventional rail network and the HSL. Maintenance will be done at Watergraafsmeer workshop, near Amsterdam. There they have already plenty of experience with the type, as they are already maintaining the similar locomotives that are being leased from Alpha Trains and Macquarie Rail.

Source: Railcolor
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Old December 11th, 2013, 03:40 PM   #1163
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Will they use these trains for services to Belgium via HSL?
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Old December 11th, 2013, 05:02 PM   #1164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
You're right. I only meant that Meastro is a brand name for Mastercard debit cards, not that their credit and debit cards were interchangable (as you state, they're not).
I don't see why Mastercard keep the Maestro brand. They should just have Mastercard debit everywhere. In the UK we used to have a bewildering range of brands, including Maestro, but they have all been removed and now we just have Visa (debit and credit), Mastercard (debit and credit) and American Express (credit). Although Northern Ireland still uses Maestro.
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Old December 11th, 2013, 05:17 PM   #1165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radamfi View Post
I don't see why Mastercard keep the Maestro brand. They should just have Mastercard debit everywhere. In the UK we used to have a bewildering range of brands, including Maestro, but they have all been removed and now we just have Visa (debit and credit), Mastercard (debit and credit) and American Express (credit). Although Northern Ireland still uses Maestro.
The "Maestro" logo is also used on debit cards issued by banks. Changing that to "Mastercard" would be confusing.
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Old December 11th, 2013, 05:36 PM   #1166
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The "Maestro" logo is also used on debit cards issued by banks. Changing that to "Mastercard" would be confusing.
But that is exactly what they did in the UK, although some banks which previously used Maestro switched to Visa debit instead.
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Old December 11th, 2013, 05:50 PM   #1167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3737 View Post
Dutch railways order 19 new Traxx locomotives

The Dutch Railways have decided to order 19 new Traxx MS locomotives (DE/AT/BE/NL configuration) for its passenger services that will include the high speed line (HSL-Zuid) in the Netherlands. Loco-hauled trains will be the short term alternative for the long planned domestic services that should have been running with the now troubled V250-trains from AnsaldoBreda. These are now topic of a dispute between NS and the Italian manufacturer.
Delivery of the 19 new machines is planned for the end of 2014. They will be operated on the relations Amsterdam – Rotterdam (as of December 2014) and The Hague - Eindhoven (as of december 2015) via the HSL. The new name for these trains will be most likely Intercity Direct. This name replaces the Fyra brand next week. Their top speed will be 160 kph.

The Traxx MS is already approved for both the Dutch conventional rail network and the HSL. Maintenance will be done at Watergraafsmeer workshop, near Amsterdam. There they have already plenty of experience with the type, as they are already maintaining the similar locomotives that are being leased from Alpha Trains and Macquarie Rail.

Source: Railcolor

The link from the article quoted above

http://www.ns.nl/binaries/content/as...ersbericht.pdf

shows a direct Amsterdam to Brussels train in 2015-2016, not via Breda or Den Haag, but this

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=1036

was showing a 'Benelux-plus' route from Amsterdam to Den Haag to Breda to Brussels.
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Old December 11th, 2013, 09:43 PM   #1168
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Dutch railways order 19 new Traxx locomotives
Their top speed will be 160 kph.
Somebody at NS doesn't seem to understand things: The politicians in The Hague have already expressed their desire for 200 km/h trains in the future. Even though it hasn't been built before, I'll bet Bombardier can build a 200 km/h P160 MS, the only difference is the bogies which put less stress on the tracks at higher speeds. Yet they still order 160 km/h F160 MS's? Why?!?
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Old December 12th, 2013, 01:31 AM   #1169
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Because the Traxx F160 edition has already been homologated for use in the Netherlands (conventional lines, HSL) and Belgium (conventional lines). They've ordered the exact same type as they have running right now, so they can get services running quickly and won't have to deal with extensive testing periods.
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Old December 12th, 2013, 09:18 AM   #1170
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The only difference between a F160 and a P160 is the way the power is transmitted from the motors to the axles (nose suspended versus quil drive). The most time consuming part of homologation is to asses electrical compatability to make sure the locomotive system don't cause malfunctions with ATB, ERTMS and the overhead lines. Because those systems are 100% identical why should they be reassesed?

Regardless: If they have Bombardier change one existing F160 to a P160 (which I've read somewhere takes about 2 weeks to do) they can probably have the homologation wrapped up before the first of the 19 units is delivered.
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Old December 12th, 2013, 09:32 AM   #1171
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The major travesty here is that NS is getting away with murder, to speak of.

It had a concession to operate high-speed trains domestically and a high-speed services to Belgium other than Thalys. It prevented other companies from getting a hold on business (and effectively competing with NS's own Thalys services and domestic non-high speed services) by offering to pay an inordinate high franchise fee.

Now we all know what happened: V250 trains didn't work properly, high-speed services do Belgium via HSL are still limited to Thalys, and now NS wants to wait until 2021 to start operating faster trains to Belgium (trains that would still be slower than top-speed of V250 which were part of its bid), all while retaining domestic high-speed services to itself.

At this point, if they re-tender the whole thing another operator could bring new services as fast as NS, or almost. So they need to put the whole HSA franchise up for competitive biding.

I even think the way NS is doing things with support of the Dutch state might result in serious judicial action on EU courts.
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Old December 12th, 2013, 10:50 AM   #1172
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It's even worse than you picture it to be, Suburbanist. NS has no intention to speed up the Beneluxplus (a nice example of marketing-newspeak!) after 2021. Until 2025 (end of the concession) NS and NMBS want to operate this service using refurbished ICRm rolling stock and TRAXX locomotives at 160 kph. 200 kph services are only envisioned for Dutch domestic services.

I agree with your statement: re-tendering the entire HSL-Zuid would be a much better approach as it finally allows to get rid of the mistakes of the past.
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Old December 12th, 2013, 11:01 AM   #1173
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Can I just clarify, is the Benelux-plus going to go via Den Haag and Breda? This pdf

http://www.ns.nl/binaries/content/as...ersbericht.pdf

is not showing that.

SNCF are starting to withdraw their old TGVs. Can these be adapted for use on the HSL-Zuid?
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Old December 12th, 2013, 01:32 PM   #1174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radamfi View Post
SNCF are starting to withdraw their old TGVs. Can these be adapted for use on the HSL-Zuid?
TGVs run on both 1500 V DC and 25 kV AC 'out of the box', but lacking 3000V DC support they can't run in Belgium. Also they need to have ERTMS and (STM-?)ATB and possibly TBL1+ retrofitted and be certified for use in the Netherlands and Belgium.

Especially that last point may have a kicker: If you certify older rolling stock for a different country, does it need to meet the current regulations? The TGV-PSE model may not be able to comply all current TSIs because after all it is a 30 year old design.
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Old December 12th, 2013, 03:35 PM   #1175
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Yes, the Beneluxplus will go through The Hague, Breda and Brussels Airport. The end result is that this train will be slower than the Benelux service ever was. A one way journey will take a staggering 193 minutes.
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Old December 13th, 2013, 01:11 AM   #1176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radamfi View Post
Can I just clarify, is the Benelux-plus going to go via Den Haag and Breda? This pdf

http://www.ns.nl/binaries/content/as...ersbericht.pdf

is not showing that.
It looks like the powerpoint differs from the official plan

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Old December 13th, 2013, 01:19 AM   #1177
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It looks like the powerpoint differs from the official plan
Ah, those slides are really outdated. They are from June, presented just after NS announced its cancellation of the V250. At that time they presented some possible alternatives, the "Eindbeeld" from the presentation was one of them.

However, it was just a possibility up for negotations. At the time I thought the "Eindbeeld" was quite acceptable. The end result after months of negotations is much, much worse.
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Old December 13th, 2013, 08:21 AM   #1178
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Yes, the Beneluxplus will go through The Hague, Breda and Brussels Airport. The end result is that this train will be slower than the Benelux service ever was. A one way journey will take a staggering 193 minutes.
I still find it amazing that they manager to make that train so slow. What are they doing? Stops the train for 20 minutes on the Moerdijkbrug so passengers can enjoy the view?
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Old December 13th, 2013, 08:28 AM   #1179
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Domestic high-speed trains usually have just one loco and they are reversed in Breda. Will that arrangement be used for these services to Belgium?

This plan from NS has no direct Rotterdam-Antwerpen traffic other than than Thalys (and in the future Eurostar)
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Old December 13th, 2013, 01:21 PM   #1180
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For the second time 2 trainsets of the NID-type have separated in service (dutch source). This mistifies me, because this has never happened with these sets in their pre-rebuild mDDM+DDAR-guise, the couplers haven't changed either and after the previous mishap all trainsets were checked.

Extra info: The previous incident in november 2012 involved the couplers between two cars of a single set, not between two coupled sets.
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Last edited by M-NL; December 13th, 2013 at 01:26 PM. Reason: Added the extra info
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