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Old December 23rd, 2013, 10:31 PM   #1221
3737
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Why the lack of HSR or upgraded train lines between northern Netherlands and Germany?
They are upgrading but it goes really slow.
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Old December 23rd, 2013, 10:36 PM   #1222
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In the future, when Kampen - Zwolle and Zwolle - Wierden are electrified, the lines might be put into a single concession and put out for tender. This is more likely to attract interested parties, but will probably mean that the infrastructure at Zwolle will have to be adjusted.
Actually electrifying and also double tracking Zwolle - Wierden could make sense: You could send the Amsterdam - Berlin train (or any intercity for that matter) over the Hanzelijn. Consider that at the current 140 km/h speed limit it takes 40m (including 4 stops!) to get from Almelo to Zwolle and 1h8m to get from Zwolle to Amsterdam CS, whereas the current route via Amersfoort takes 1h44m. If in the future the ICx can run 200 km/h on the Hanzelijn, that would reduce travel time and relieve Amersfoort.
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Old December 23rd, 2013, 10:36 PM   #1223
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Why the lack of HSR or upgraded train lines between northern Netherlands and Germany?
Both sides of the border are sparsely populated, peripheral regions. Not a lot of people for traffic within the border region, and not a lot of people from outside the border region travelling through it.
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Old December 24th, 2013, 05:25 AM   #1224
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The line between Leeuwarden and Groningen should be electrified and should feature two tracks. Unfortunately the only way that line would have received a real impulse would have been through the construction of a railway line on the Afsluitdijk which is not going to happen since the government decided to go with the Lelystad-Zwolle connection instead.
Nice map.

What about building a new dyke and connecting Amsterdam, Hoorn - Leeuwaarden, Groningen and Bremen (Hamburg) with a 200+line.
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Old December 24th, 2013, 08:35 AM   #1225
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I certainly don't. Why is there very little demand and are you sure it's not a chicken and egg problem (no demand because connections are poor and poor connections because there is little demand)?
There's a motorway running parallel with hardly anyone on it. It's a very remote part of the Netherlands with low population density and practicality no transit traffic.
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Old December 24th, 2013, 10:33 AM   #1226
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Nice map.

What about building a new dyke and connecting Amsterdam, Hoorn - Leeuwaarden, Groningen and Bremen (Hamburg) with a 200+line.
You say build a Afsluitdijk next to the Afsluitdijk. There where plans once to build a railway there, but it was axed in favor for a second carriageway for the motorway.

But Demand is to low and I think priorities for 200Km/h+ should be somewhere else!
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Old December 24th, 2013, 02:42 PM   #1227
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It doesn't have to be a second levee. The IJsselmeer is quite shallow, you could build a normal viaduct there, it wouldn't even be that expensive. Actually, you could build a subaquatict tunnel as well, probably after dragging a channel over the shallowest parts. Or build a mix of viaduct +tunnel + artificial island.
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Old December 24th, 2013, 03:41 PM   #1228
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It doesn't have to be a second levee. The IJsselmeer is quite shallow, you could build a normal viaduct there, it wouldn't even be that expensive. Actually, you could build a subaquatict tunnel as well, probably after dragging a channel over the shallowest parts. Or build a mix of viaduct +tunnel + artificial island.
How about trying to change your own country instead of throwing your "they shoulds" everywhere in other places
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Old December 24th, 2013, 03:47 PM   #1229
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How about trying to change your own country instead of throwing your "they shoulds" everywhere in other places
What about you stop trying to disqualify my posting activity on SSC with cheap attacks like this one?
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Old December 24th, 2013, 04:39 PM   #1230
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Suburbanist's idea is a nice engineering challenge, but will not be realized as there is not enough demand to justify the expenses incurred.
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Old December 24th, 2013, 05:18 PM   #1231
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Suburbanist's idea is a nice engineering challenge, but will not be realized as there is not enough demand to justify the expenses incurred.
I think the Hanzelijn more or less put off other railways to Fr^yslan and Groningen for the time being, in practice.

Yet, a lot of travel time could be gained if they upgraded the signaling. ATB is, at the moment, what holds back higher speeds. ROW for most railways is fine (where it wasn't, like Rotterdam-Moerdijk, a HSL was built after all...). Eliminating grade crossings is not a difficult task on major trunk roads (if only they don't want a rail tunnel as the standard solution)* However, until 130 km/h restrictions are in place the system will underperform.

That is why I don't understand this money thrown away on ATB-"plus" as most of the network will eventually get ERTMS.
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Old December 24th, 2013, 09:38 PM   #1232
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You say build a Afsluitdijk next to the Afsluitdijk. There where plans once to build a railway there, but it was axed in favor for a second carriageway for the motorway.

But Demand is to low and I think priorities for 200Km/h+ should be somewhere else!
Well, yeah.

But first, it would not have to be so complicated as Afsluitdijk as it would have not its functions. It could prove financially more feasible due to already existing tracks. It could prove more beneficial in terms of the time travel.

There is certainly less demand. But one of the reason that the north is so underdeveloped is its troublesome connection to the core. If you could get commuting times from Leeuwarden to Amsterdam under 40 minutes, it would be feasible for daily commute.

Sure, they probably are projects that deliver more in the cost benefit analysis and thus the economics would favor them. On the other side I am not sure that in this way a less developed regions will improve in the long term.

All in all it was just an idea.
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Old December 24th, 2013, 09:49 PM   #1233
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I think the greatest hurdle of a new railway to Leeuwarden wouldn't be crossing the water, not crossing Frisian fields, but finding a proper ROW between Amsterdam and the water. The line to Einkhuizen would require major works (for a 40min travel time). Yet, I agree that making Sneek a place with easy access to Amsterdam would be a great thing, for instance.
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Old December 24th, 2013, 10:33 PM   #1234
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Before we start new lines to the outer parts of the country it's 1st needed to seriously upgrade the lines around the 4 big cities. There's much more to be won thereb in terms of creating better services for more people and making the network as a whole more reliable.
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Old December 24th, 2013, 11:06 PM   #1235
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Before we start new lines to the outer parts of the country it's 1st needed to seriously upgrade the lines around the 4 big cities. There's much more to be won thereb in terms of creating better services for more people and making the network as a whole more reliable.
What about that project to have 6 ICs per hour per direction on lines between A'Dam-R'Dam-Eindhoven-Utrecht-A'dam?
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Old December 25th, 2013, 12:53 AM   #1236
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Before we start new lines to the outer parts of the country it's 1st needed to seriously upgrade the lines around the 4 big cities. There's much more to be won thereb in terms of creating better services for more people and making the network as a whole more reliable.

But that's exactly what I was talking about. If you invest in the core, because the return on the investment is higher (at least so it may seem), you will need to subsidize the periphery in the long run in order to keep the living standards in tact, you will see demographic problems, etc etc.

On the other side, if you make the periphery more connected and participating on the wealth creation now at the costs of higher investments, you will be rewarded by less redistribution in other areas.

The exact cost benefit analysis in the big picture is unfortunately more a crystal ball work than anything. In this respect I think that it is anyway more a question of political will and ambition than precise economic calculation, as that one is mostly not possible.
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Old December 25th, 2013, 01:04 AM   #1237
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I think the greatest hurdle of a new railway to Leeuwarden wouldn't be crossing the water, not crossing Frisian fields, but finding a proper ROW between Amsterdam and the water. The line to Einkhuizen would require major works (for a 40min travel time). Yet, I agree that making Sneek a place with easy access to Amsterdam would be a great thing, for instance.
I think they already made a start in Stavoren, didn't they?

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Old December 25th, 2013, 04:10 PM   #1238
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Do Friesland/Groningen/Drenthe want fast rail links to the Randstad? It might change the provincial way of life (i.e. increase development) and make the cost of housing more expensive if the area becomes commutable to the Randstad.
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Old December 25th, 2013, 04:21 PM   #1239
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There's a motorway running parallel with hardly anyone on it. It's a very remote part of the Netherlands with low population density and practicality no transit traffic.
There is an express bus service running from Alkmaar to Leeuwarden every hour, 7 days a week, with clever connection possibilities at Den Oever so that passengers from Den Helder and Hoorn can also travel to Leeuwarden with virtually no waiting in Den Oever as the bus schedules are carefully coordinated.

What I find bizarre is why the bus service along the Afsluitdijk is so good whereas there is no service between Lelystad and Enkhuizen along the N302. The train alternative is a long detour via Amsterdam.

Last edited by radamfi; December 25th, 2013 at 04:32 PM.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 10:08 AM   #1240
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That is why I don't understand this money thrown away on ATB-"plus" as most of the network will eventually get ERTMS.
You mean ATB-VV right? ATB-VV is the system used to prevent SPADs. ATB+ is the system Thalys (and Thalys only!) used to go 160 km/h on a 140 km/h stretch, by using Eurobalises.

If you meant ATB+, I don't understand, because it is only installed on one section and is not and will not be implemented anywhere else.

If you meant ATB-VV, I partially agree. I don't agree, because it does improve safety a bit, but I do agree, because it's both not failsafe and they're investing money in a system that will only be used for short period of time (around 10 years). Instead they could have gone the Belgian way and used a system similar to TBL1+. Then the beacons could have been reused for ERTMS in the future.
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