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Old April 8th, 2014, 07:01 PM   #1321
webeagle12
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Dutch Traxx locomotives grounded

AT the request of manufacturer Bombardier, Netherlands Railways (NS) withdrew its entire fleet of Traxx F140 MS (class 186) multi-system locomotives from service on April 8, reportedly due to pantograph problems.

NS and the High Speed Alliance (HSA) lease 18 class 186 locomotives from Alpha Trains for use with ICRm coaches on IC-Direct (formerly Fyra) services from Amsterdam to Rotterdam and Breda. The locomotives were brought in to replace the fleet of AnsaldoBreda V250 emus, which was withdrawn last year.

The withdrawal of the class 186s means IC-Direct passengers cannot currently travel via HSL South and are forced to use slower conventional NS services on parallel routes. There is no suitable alternative rolling stock available in the Netherlands as HSL South is equipped with 25 kV 50 Hz ac electrification and ETCS Level 2.

Bombardier is reportedly investigating the pantographs and their behavior in relation to the catenary. It is not clear yet how long the Traxx locomotives will remain out of service and when IC-Direct will resume operations.

NS has ordered 19 class 186 locomotives from Bombardier, which will replace the leased units on IC-Direct services.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...-grounded.html
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Old April 8th, 2014, 07:57 PM   #1322
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Tomorrow NS will operate an hourly service as some locomotives have been cleared for service. Somewhere along the day it will become known if thursday's services will be affected.
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Old April 9th, 2014, 09:23 AM   #1323
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It could be an aerodynamic problem: Does anyone know of another country where the TRAXX is used at 160 km/h with the front pantograph up?

All other Dutch locomotive classes have a speed limit when using the front pantograph, because at higher speed the air flow causes an increased contact pressure, that could cause damage to the wire or the contact strip.
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Old April 9th, 2014, 11:24 AM   #1324
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Why does NS use the front panto on the 186s?
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Old April 9th, 2014, 01:29 PM   #1325
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Because out of the 4 pantographs only one can be used for 25 kV. (Another one 15 kV and 2 for DC)
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Old April 9th, 2014, 01:42 PM   #1326
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Why two pantos for DC ?
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Old April 9th, 2014, 02:28 PM   #1327
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Actually, the problem is in the DC pantos. These are raised and lowered very frequently, about 80 times a day.
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Old April 9th, 2014, 02:29 PM   #1328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Why two pantos for DC ?
Because DC network use lower voltage (1,5 kV or 3 kV), so to get the same power (=watts) compared to AC systems (15 kV or 25 kV), it needs more current (=more Ampers), and more current need more contact surface, unless you want to burn the wire from all those excessive heat, caused by passing big current through a single panto. When using 2 pantos, current is split evenly, every panto got only half of current, which is ok.
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Old April 9th, 2014, 03:24 PM   #1329
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I did some research and found indeed some picture of Fyra locs starting with two pantos on the wire.
I suppose the front panto gets dropped as soon as the train is started. Never happens in Belgium,
though, and all the pictures I found were under NS (i.e. 1.5 kV) catenary. Under 3 kV and with the
wire section used, this is definitely not needed. It was with old locs (DC serial traction motors and
resistances) but the new ones have only one DC panto anyway, hence my surprise when I saw two
DC pantos mentioned.

Last edited by MarcVD; April 9th, 2014 at 03:38 PM.
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Old April 9th, 2014, 05:49 PM   #1330
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Also, I guess the 25 kV panto has a load control (usually needed on HSLs), while the DC ones don't, hence some problems they may face under heavy duty.


Quote:
Originally Posted by webeagle12 View Post
NS has ordered 19 class 186 locomotives from Bombardier, which will replace the leased units on IC-Direct services.
Since these locos will have to use the HSLs for a long time and serve only that purpose, I don't understand why not buying 200 km/h machines. They can buy faster coaches from DB, or buy new ones later... or even adapt the existing ones.
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Old April 9th, 2014, 06:36 PM   #1331
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OFF TOPIC (sorry)

Breaking news! Against all odds, I'll have my Erasmus at Den Haag University

Cheers to all the Dutch forumers

/OT
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Old April 9th, 2014, 07:49 PM   #1332
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Congrats, and welcome to the Netherlands!

Regarding 200 kph machines: NS bought the exact same locomotives as are currently running on HSL-Zuid. This means the locos can quickly enter service (upon being delivered). 200 kph locomotives have a different construction and would thus require the entire approval process, something which can take many months. The new locomotives are only intended as a stop-gap solution until the new intercity rolling stock (IC200) arrives which is intended to run 200 kph (some politicians want NS to go faster than that).

Besides, NS does not own any coaches that can do 200 kph either so having locos that can is a waste of time and money.
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Old April 9th, 2014, 08:54 PM   #1333
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Thanks

I knew about the coaches, but I didn't know about the new IC200 stock plan: in that case I agree there's no need to buy new faster locos. I believed the 186s+coaches were meant as a much longer term solution.
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Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
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Old April 9th, 2014, 09:39 PM   #1334
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Yes and no. The 186+coaches solution is a stopgap solution for domestic traffic. IC200 trains are expected to arrive starting 2021 (or sooner if possible). For international travel, the 186+coaches solution will remain in use until at least 2025 as going faster is nonsense with the services they will run on (Amsterdam - Schiphol - The Hague HS - Delft - Rotterdam - Breda - Noorderkempen - Antwerp Luchtbal - Antwerp Central, Antwerp Berchem, Mechelen, Brussels Airport, Brussels North, Brussels Central and Brussels South).

The only place where coaches going 200 km/h would make sense is between Rotterdam (Barendrecht) and Breda, and between Breda and Noorderkempen. The time gained is just very limited due to the short distances.
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Old April 9th, 2014, 10:12 PM   #1335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DingeZ View Post
Actually, the problem is in the DC pantos. These are raised and lowered very frequently, about 80 times a day.
That surprises me, because on the old resistor locos, for the reasons described earlier, also 2 pantographs were used without any durability issues.
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Last edited by M-NL; April 9th, 2014 at 10:17 PM.
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Old April 10th, 2014, 12:23 AM   #1336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
I did some research and found indeed some picture of Fyra locs starting with two pantos on the wire.
I suppose the front panto gets dropped as soon as the train is started. Never happens in Belgium,
though, and all the pictures I found were under NS (i.e. 1.5 kV) catenary. Under 3 kV and with the
wire section used, this is definitely not needed. It was with old locs (DC serial traction motors and
resistances) but the new ones have only one DC panto anyway, hence my surprise when I saw two
DC pantos mentioned.
It makes perfect sense - loco will draw more amps under 1.5 kV than under 3 kV. And the moment when the current is the highest - is starting from standstill.
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Old April 10th, 2014, 01:50 AM   #1337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
OFF TOPIC (sorry)

Breaking news! Against all odds, I'll have my Erasmus at Den Haag University

Cheers to all the Dutch forumers

/OT
That's weird, because Den Haag is wildly infamous for being the largest Dutch city without a university.

On topic:
Yes, all locos (as far as I know) in the Netherlands use two pantographs when departing. The thing I noticed with the TRAXX is that the pantographs lower quite harshly. You can hear the them almost smacking down.

Here at 0:16 you can hear the pantograph falling onto the roof:

Last edited by DingeZ; April 10th, 2014 at 02:00 AM.
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Old April 10th, 2014, 08:33 AM   #1338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
It was with old locs (DC serial traction motors and resistances) but the new ones have only one DC panto anyway, hence my surprise when I saw two
DC pantos mentioned.
Well there is a combination of 2 effects to consider: the current drawn from the overhead wire, combined with the collector width. It could just be that the TRAXX has slightly narrower collector strips and thus requires 2 pantos up under 1.5 kV. Or maybe it is not even required, but to be on the safe side it's a function they included in the programming.

This problem is proof again that the Netherlands should change to 3 kV DC or 25 kV AC asap. The limits of the current system are reached.
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Old April 10th, 2014, 08:55 AM   #1339
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It should change to 25kV 50Hz indeed.

They could start electrifying lines that are used in conjunction to HSL according to new plans.
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Old April 10th, 2014, 10:00 AM   #1340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
It should change to 25kV 50Hz indeed.
Such a project has already been considered. It finally was rejected because of the costs. Basically, you would need to

1) increase clearances, as the insulation distances for 25 kV AC are much
bigger than for 1.5 kV DC, so review all bridges, make them higher or lower
the tracks
2) change all catenary insulators
3) change all track circuits used for signalling
4) install new power sub-stations
5) change of adapt all rolling stock (not only locos and EMUs but also
coaches because of the power supply for heating/HVAC/lights...)

Even for a whealthy country like the Netherlands, it's unaffordable. Even as
a, let's say, 10 years plan. And I'm even not counting the transition costs (i.e. how do you operate while the network is half DC, half AC).
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