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Old April 10th, 2014, 11:27 AM   #1341
DingeZ
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That's why ProRail and NS have chosen to go for 3kV. As there are no plans to run Intercity's at more than 200km/h apart from the HSL, 3kV is sufficient. Actually, the reason to upgrade to 3kV is mainly to make power regeneration more efficient.
A difference however with Belgium, is that the maximum amperage is Belgium is set around 2kA, while the Dutch overhead wires can take up to 4.8kA. If it is converted to 3kV but the maximum amperage is set equal, then it is truly capable of powering more trains.
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Old April 10th, 2014, 11:35 AM   #1342
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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
OFF TOPIC (sorry)

Breaking news! Against all odds, I'll have my Erasmus at Den Haag University

Cheers to all the Dutch forumers

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Old April 10th, 2014, 01:44 PM   #1343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Such a project has already been considered. It finally was rejected because of the costs. Basically, you would need to

1) increase clearances, as the insulation distances for 25 kV AC are much
bigger than for 1.5 kV DC, so review all bridges, make them higher or lower
the tracks
2) change all catenary insulators
3) change all track circuits used for signalling
4) install new power sub-stations
5) change of adapt all rolling stock (not only locos and EMUs but also
coaches because of the power supply for heating/HVAC/lights...)

Even for a whealthy country like the Netherlands, it's unaffordable. Even as
a, let's say, 10 years plan. And I'm even not counting the transition costs (i.e. how do you operate while the network is half DC, half AC).
Of all the arguments only the one about signalling make sense to me.

France has been running a network that is partly DC, partly AC for decades now. Belgium is as wel. So are many other countries. The problem of dealing with different overhead voltages has been so thoroughly solved that SNCF doesn't mind if a train has to change voltage for just a few km.

As to the cleareance being a problem, why do I see AC catenary in low tunnels, just barely below the cealing in many places?
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Old April 10th, 2014, 09:07 PM   #1344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DingeZ View Post
That's weird, because Den Haag is wildly infamous for being the largest Dutch city without a university.
Leiden University has a new campus in Den Haag. Also there are the art academy and the university of applied sciences.
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Old April 11th, 2014, 08:49 AM   #1345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
France has been running a network that is partly DC, partly AC for decades now. Belgium is as wel. So are many other countries. The problem of dealing with different overhead voltages has been so thoroughly solved that SNCF doesn't mind if a train has to change voltage for just a few km.
The problem NS sees is in the way rolling stock is managed. They basically want to be able to use any rolling stock anywhere anytime on the Dutch network. When you get into a situation where you have DC, AC and AC/DC rolling stock they fear they loose to much flexibility, change all rolling stock to AC/DC is deemed to expensive.

The stupid thing is: the Netherlands started of with 10 kV 25Hz, then considered 15 kV 16.7 Hz, but eventually decided on 1.5 kV, because it was easier to implement. They figured they could easily change it later if they needed to. How wrong they were.
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Old April 11th, 2014, 08:58 AM   #1346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Of all the arguments only the one about signalling make sense to me.
I see in you answer an argument regarding clearances. I do not see any
reasoning for dismissing the 3 others...

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
France has been running a network that is partly DC, partly AC for decades now. Belgium is as wel. So are many other countries. The problem of dealing with different overhead voltages has been so thoroughly solved that SNCF doesn't mind if a train has to change voltage for just a few km.
Yes indeed. But :

- France has this kind of network since decades and plans to keep it that
way. So they developped, over the years, a fleet of bi-courant rolling stock
that can be used under the two systems. The NS rolling stock is, on the
other end, mostly entirely DC only. If they plan a full conversion to AC over,
let's say, 10 years, it means that for that period, they would need at least
half of their fleet capable to run under both AC and DC, and after those 10
years, a fleet entirely converted to AC. Railway rolling stock is usually built
for la lifespan of 30-40 years... How do you manage that ?

- Belgium is a special case, the lines with AC traction being :
-- Either at the periphery of the network and before electrification,
exploited with elderly equipment that needed renewal anyway ;
-- Or with new capabilities (200 km/h) that required new rolling stock
in any case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
As to the cleareance being a problem, why do I see AC catenary in low tunnels, just barely below the cealing in many places?
You can't go against physics. The insulation distance in air needed to avoid
arcing is proportional to the voltage. So if for 1.5 kV we need 5 cm, for
25 kV you'll need 1 m...

In any case, this project would require massive investment - just try to
figure out how much it would require to replace the whole rolling stock - and
the money to do that just isn't there...
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Old April 11th, 2014, 09:03 AM   #1347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DingeZ View Post
the maximum amperage is Belgium is set around 2kA
2400 A in the older installations, 4000 A in the ones developped during the last 10 years. And this is per train, not per track, and has nothing to do with
the catenary itself. The limitation comes from the rectifiers in the sub-stations. The SNCB and NS overhead wires have more or less the same equivalent
section, so the current they can accept is more or less the same too. But if you want to keep the same maximum current at 3kV that you have at 1.5kV now,
it means you will have to double the power output of the rectifiers in the sub-stations. That will not come cheap.
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Old April 11th, 2014, 09:15 AM   #1348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
The problem NS sees is in the way rolling stock is managed. They basically want to be able to use any rolling stock anywhere anytime on the Dutch network. When you get into a situation where you have DC, AC and AC/DC rolling stock they fear they loose to much flexibility, change all rolling stock to AC/DC is deemed to expensive.
If that's the main problem they see, then I don't understand why chosing 3kV
instead is considered as a better solution. Change all rolling stock to 1.5/3 kV
is not going to be much cheaper than going for an AC/DC fleet. Remember,
adapting a 3kV loco to accept also 1.5 kV is easy (SNCB did it many times),
but the opposite is not true at all (and as a proof of that, NS never did it).

It is however much cheaper to go for 3kV than to 25kV on the infrastructure
side : insulation distances do not change that much, signalling equipment
remains compatible... That's where you win.
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Old April 11th, 2014, 01:21 PM   #1349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
2400 A in the older installations, 4000 A in the ones developped during the last 10 years. And this is per train, not per track, and has nothing to do with
the catenary itself.
Are you sure you didn't mean the other way around? That's at least how it is in the Netherlands. All trains together in one power section cannot use more then 4000A, otherwise the substation will shut down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
If that's the main problem they see, then I don't understand why chosing 3kV instead is considered as a better solution.
The unfortunate truth is that 3kV is not at all a better solution, 25kV would be way better. However, all current requirements can be met with 3kV, at a fraction of the cost of a transition to 25kV. The current decision makers, just like happened in 1905, just don't look ahead further then a few years and are making the same mistake again, and settle for a sub optimal solution, just because it's cheaper.
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Old April 11th, 2014, 03:08 PM   #1350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
If they plan a full conversion to AC over,
let's say, 10 years, it means that for that period, they would need at least
half of their fleet capable to run under both AC and DC, and after those 10
years, a fleet entirely converted to AC. Railway rolling stock is usually built
for la lifespan of 30-40 years... How do you manage that ?
If you migrate to 3KV DC you'll need multi current capable stock as well. The thing is that multi-current AC/DC stock is easier than bi-current DC/DC stock. In fact, the way AC stock is constructed these days you get the DC capabilities almost for free.


Quote:
You can't go against physics. The insulation distance in air needed to avoid
arcing is proportional to the voltage. So if for 1.5 kV we need 5 cm, for
25 kV you'll need 1 m...
So how do some railways get away with less then 1m?
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Old April 11th, 2014, 05:04 PM   #1351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
If you migrate to 3KV DC you'll need multi current capable stock as well. ?
Where did I say the opposite ? You're in fact saying the same as what I said myself two posts earlier

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The thing is that multi-current AC/DC stock is easier than bi-current DC/DC stock. In fact, the way AC stock is constructed these days you get the DC capabilities almost for free.
Totally false. The way current traction chains work is the following : first
produce DC and then ondulate it at variable tension and frequency for 3
phase motors. If the power supply is AC, you must first lower the tension
(transformer) and then rectify it to feed the DC bus. So an AC capable
traction unit will always be heavier and more expensive than a DC only one.
This is the reason why the first dual-mode sets (SNCF AGC) came first with
DC only, AC came later and only with longer units, to be able to store the
additional equipment. IF AC was free, SNCB would not have bothered ordering
two different series of Desiro Main Line units and would have ordered the 3/25
variant only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
So how do some railways get away with less then 1m?
I have no idea and would very much appreciate if you could post a picture or
a link where this is clearly visible. But I know that SNCF hesitated a lot before
going for AC electrification of the RER E tunnel between Haussmann and Magenta
(this is the first AC-electrified tunnel under Paris), because, among
others, those problems of insulation distances.
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Old April 11th, 2014, 05:08 PM   #1352
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When was electrification of the main lines completed in Netherlands?

Has the conversion been steam => electric or did they go like steam => diesel => electric?
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Old April 11th, 2014, 06:11 PM   #1353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Totally false. The way current traction chains work is the following : first produce DC and then ondulate it at variable tension and frequency for 3
phase motors. If the power supply is AC, you must first lower the tension
(transformer) and then rectify it to feed the DC bus. So an AC capable
traction unit will always be heavier and more expensive than a DC only one.
This is the reason why the first dual-mode sets (SNCF AGC) came first with
DC only, AC came later and only with longer units, to be able to store the
additional equipment. IF AC was free, SNCB would not have bothered ordering
two different series of Desiro Main Line units and would have ordered the 3/25
variant only.
I'm not saying AC is free. I'm saying that with AC capable stock DC is almost free. And you have actually given a good explanation as to why: The AC gets converted in to DC anyway. So choose DC 1500V as the tension on the DC bus and all you need to add is a few switches and a pantograph.

Which is why I'm maintaining that if you are going to have a dual-mode fleet anyway, that an AC/DC vehicle is easier than a DC/DC vehicle. This because curretnly all AC vehicles use a DC bus, and thus are basically AC/DC vehicles.
Building trains that perform well under two DC tensions is not trivial, and you'll end up buying bespoke, in stead of off-the-shelf for the next decades...
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Old April 11th, 2014, 06:29 PM   #1354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
I have no idea and would very much appreciate if you could post a picture or
a link where this is clearly visible. But I know that SNCF hesitated a lot before
going for AC electrification of the RER E tunnel between Haussmann and Magenta
(this is the first AC-electrified tunnel under Paris), because, among
others, those problems of insulation distances.

This is in Switzerland, but this is 25kV:


This is in Croatia, again 25kV:



The last photo is interesting, because this was indeed a case of needing a solution to the problem of electrifying with 25kV in a place with very tight clearances. It appears the Furrert+Frey have solutions for that...
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Old April 11th, 2014, 07:28 PM   #1355
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Is that rigid cantenary?
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Old April 11th, 2014, 07:46 PM   #1356
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On other (big) news, today it was anounced that starting of 2016 ERMTS wil be introduced on only the most busiest part of the Dutch railway network. Before 2020 al the rolling stock will be equiped with ERMTS.


Purple : ERMTS level 2 will be equiped before 2028.
Green: ERMTS is already build and (except Lelystad-Zwolle) active.
Yellow: No ERMTS.

Source: ovpro (Dutch)
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Old April 11th, 2014, 07:50 PM   #1357
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Once the advantages of ERTMS become obvious, they will start converting the rest of the network. Hopefully implementation costs will be lower by than, and so the time it takes to deploy it.

What about plans to connect Emmen with Veendam or at least extend service to Stadskanaal?
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Last edited by Suburbanist; April 11th, 2014 at 08:08 PM.
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Old April 11th, 2014, 08:28 PM   #1358
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It was just in the news that Arriva expects to extend the Groningen - Veendam services to Stadskanaal in 2017.
http://www.rtvnoord.nl/artikel/artikel.asp?p=119828

The Veendam - Stadskanaal line is now in use as a museum line with steam trains (S.T.A.R), it will need an upgrade to start scheduled passenger services with Arriva's GTWs.

There are local politicians that want to extend the line even further to Emmen, but those plans are just pipe-line dreams for now. A completely new line will have to be build, making it much more expensive that the extension to Stadskanaal. Which makes it very unlikely that it will ever happen, also because it will connect 2 regions with a shrinking population.
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Old April 11th, 2014, 08:32 PM   #1359
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I also think they should extend regular scheduled services on the Schin on Geul - Kerkrade touristic line, and maybe run Rotterdam - Arnhem express services on the Betuwe route.
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Old April 11th, 2014, 08:49 PM   #1360
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Schin on Geul - Kerkrade would be interesting, but it needs to be electrified to make it worthwhile. It could be operated as a loop with trains coming from Maastricht going either clockwise or anti clockwise from Schin op Geul to Heerlen and then onwards back to Maastricht.

But I don't think that this will happen, it makes more sense if the ZLSM starts a more regular service with old diesel trains in the high season.


There will be no passenger trains on the Betuweroute. The is not certified for passenger operations, especially the tunnels will need serious modifications to make them safe if a large number of passengers will need to be evacuated. The number of passengers that travel directly between Rotterdam and Arnhem is also not big enough to make these extra investments in the line worthwhile. I also doubt that it will be faster then running Rotterdam - Arnhem trains via the standard route with just 1 stop in Utrecht.
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