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Old April 11th, 2014, 09:56 PM   #1361
AlexNL
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There are some weird omissions in the map above. Nearly the entire corridor from Bad Bentheim to Amsterdam will be equipped with ERTMS, but between Amersfoort and Hilversum this will not be the case. I don't see why as adding ERTMS to that small section would complete the corridor and would make the route more suited for future trains to Germany (e.g. ICx).

Another interesting omission is Zwolle - Groningen/Leeuwarden: those lines are nearly straight and the desire exists to speed up trains to reduce travel times. By sticking to the old ATB system it won't be possible to go faster than 140 kph while it should be possible to do 200 kph with new rolling stock, 3 kV and ERTMS.
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Old April 11th, 2014, 10:01 PM   #1362
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Where do level crossings come in? I imagine they would pose a problem for 200km/h.
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Old April 12th, 2014, 02:13 AM   #1363
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Level crossings are undesirable at any railway, but sometimes they're simply unavoidable because they're used infrequently (farmers crossing the railway to get to a different part of their land), due to a lack of space for a viaduct or tunnel, or due to a lack of funds.

I don't feel that the mere existence of a level crossing should block an upgrade of a section of track to 200 kph. The level crossing can be maintained as long as it closes on time (which means: move the train announcement sections), if necessary traffic that uses the crossing can be warned for the higher speeds by means of signs.

In the UK, there are plenty of level crossings (public footpaths that go along the railway) that only have a sign as 'protection': "Stop, look, listen. Beware of trains." There are no lights and no bells, all there is is just a flimsy tiny gate that you have to climb over. At the other side, trains may run at speeds of up to 200 kph. This situation is way more unsafe than level crossings as we know them in the Netherlands.

A more valid concern in my opinion are the platforms where through-trains don't stop, the platforms should be brought away from the through track or, if this is not possible due to space/budgetary restrains, should be widened as such that people have the ability to protect themselves from an oncoming train. Audio/visual warnings ("Please stand back from the edge of platform 1, the approaching train is not scheduled to stop at platform 1.") can help with this.

If people deliberately stay on a level crossing or step onto the tracks at a platform, the difference between passing at 140 kph or 200 kph will be very small, as will chances of survival be. The risk of the train derailing after a full-on collission with a vehicle might go up a little bit, but there is data available about these situation (level crossing for 200 kph exist abroad).
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Old April 12th, 2014, 11:28 AM   #1364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Is that rigid cantenary?
It is. The point is that it shows that you don't need 1m long insulators with 25Kv.

The UK went for 25kV as well, and they don't exactly have a large loading gauge either...

So I think that the argument that there is no room for a 25kV catenary on the dutch network is not so strong...
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Old April 12th, 2014, 11:28 AM   #1365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
There are some weird omissions in the map above. Nearly the entire corridor from Bad Bentheim to Amsterdam will be equipped with ERTMS, but between Amersfoort and Hilversum this will not be the case. I don't see why as adding ERTMS to that small section would complete the corridor and would make the route more suited for future trains to Germany (e.g. ICx).
Could be just a mistake in the map...
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Old April 13th, 2014, 12:42 AM   #1366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
There are some weird omissions in the map above. Nearly the entire corridor from Bad Bentheim to Amsterdam will be equipped with ERTMS, but between Amersfoort and Hilversum this will not be the case. I don't see why as adding ERTMS to that small section would complete the corridor and would make the route more suited for future trains to Germany (e.g. ICx).
Or is it an indication that in the future the trains Berlin-Hannover-Amsterdam will run via Utrecht?
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Old April 14th, 2014, 08:36 AM   #1367
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That would not make any sense at all. Amersfoort - Utrecht is one of the busiest 2 track sections in the Netherlands. If any route change were to happen, it would be Almelo - Zwolle - Amsterdam (you would need to electrify Wierden-Zwolle, but that was intended fot the future anyway).

Why is Hengelo-Enschede not switched to ERTMS? All other lines in the vicinity will be either ATB-NG or ERTMS, so why keep one short line at ATB-EG?

Another interesting point the map doesn't touch: Are sections with ERTMS dual-signalling or is the existing system going to be removed? In case of dual signallinging some of the limitations of ATB will remain. In an earlier report it was stated that the entire operation should start by equipping all rolling stock with an EVC + STM's, to prevent that a train without ERTMS must run on a ERTMS only line or at a speed it can't do without ERTMS.
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Old April 14th, 2014, 01:27 PM   #1368
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I think that map is just wrong.
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Old April 14th, 2014, 01:38 PM   #1369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
It is. The point is that it shows that you don't need 1m long insulators with 25Kv.

The UK went for 25kV as well, and they don't exactly have a large loading gauge either...

So I think that the argument that there is no room for a 25kV catenary on the dutch network is not so strong...
You can have shorter insulators with rigid catenary because you don't have
to take in account any security margin for possible cable movements.

But this system has other drawbacks, therefore you see it only when
enlarging the loading gauge would be unaffordable. So, essentially, in tunnels.

Under bridges, it's always cheaper and operationally better to make the bridge
higher, or lower the trackbed.

The comparison with the british network is irrelevant, because this one was
not electrified at all. Its loading gauge was so low that even a DC catenary
did not fit. The difference of cost to enlarge the loading gauge for DC or for
AC was not that big, so they took the right decision and went for AC.

But with NS the choice is more difficult because for AC you must enlarge the
loading gauge, while for 3 kV DC you don't...

The question also - which has probably not been verified yet - is to check
whether the national power grid in the Netherlands is strong enough to support the dissymetric load caused by a 25 kV substation.
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Old April 14th, 2014, 07:42 PM   #1370
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From Railway Gazette:

Quote:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/i...-strategy.html

Government approves Dutch ETCS roll-out strategy
14 Apr 2014



NETHERLANDS: A 10-year programme for the introduction of the European Rail Traffic Management System across the core rail network has been approved by the ruling cabinet of the coalition government.

A budget of €2·5bn had previously been agreed for ERTMS implementation up to 2028, and the programme presented by State Secretary for Infrastructure & Environment Wilma Mansveld has been designed to make the most effective use of the available funding.

ETCS is already operational on the Betuwe Route freight corridor, HSL-Zuid and the new Hanzelijn between Lelystadt and Zwolle, mainly using Level 2, but with some Level 1. It has also been installed on ProRail’s Amsterdam – Utrecht main line in conjunction with the quadrupling of that route over the past decade. Around 20% of the NS fleet has been equipped so far, according to Mansfeld.

The government has now agreed that ETCS Level 2 should be adopted as the standard train control system, replacing the increasingly obsolete ATB automatic train protection equipment, and improving capacity at the same time. All rolling stock is to be equipped with Baseline 3 compliant onboard equipment by 2022.

Under the infrastructure programme due to start in 2016, ETCS will be installed on the majority of routes in the Randstad conurbation, and on the main lines running south to Vlissingen, Roosendaal and Eidhoven, and east to Arnhem, Nijmegen, Almelo and Bad Bentheim, which are used by international freight and passenger trains. At this stage it will not be installed north of Alkmaar nor on the routes to Zwolle, Groningen and Leeuwarden.

Meanwhile, in order to ensure safety in the short term, Mansfeld said that all routes not currently equipped with ATP or where ERTMS is scheduled would be fitted with an improved ATB-Vv.
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Old April 14th, 2014, 09:56 PM   #1371
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Italy once thought about 6 kV DC, but I think no engine has ever built with that system. However, at least a line electrified at (nominal) 4 kV DC did exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
The question also - which has probably not been verified yet - is to check whether the national power grid in the Netherlands is strong enough to support the dissymetric load caused by a 25 kV substation.
2x25 kV?
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Old April 15th, 2014, 12:07 AM   #1372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
2x25 kV?
Does not solve the problem. From the power grid side, it is still a
non-symmetric load (a symmetric load takes the same current
from the 3 phases). It just allows to lenghten the distance between
two successive sub-stations.
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Old April 15th, 2014, 12:57 AM   #1373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dimlys1994 View Post
From Railway Gazette:
"Around 20% of the NS fleet has been equipped so far, according to Mansfeld."

No idea where they came up with this number. As far as I know, only a few test SLT's have ERTMS built in, plus the Thalys trains, the Traxx locomotives, and I think one ICE3, which doesn't normally run in The Netherlands (I just saw it on the Hanzelijn for the 200km/h test)?
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Old April 15th, 2014, 01:31 AM   #1374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Italy once thought about 6 kV DC, but I think no engine has ever built with that system. However, at least a line electrified at (nominal) 4 kV DC did exist.
Five VL22I, one VL23I, one VL8V, four ER2V trainsets... were experientially fitted with semiconductors back in 70th, and some of them were 3 kV DC only, others were fitted for both 3 kV and 6 kV DC, and tested in a Soviet Georgia at experimental Tskhinvali-Gori line*
Reaserch revealed: 1. Soviet semiconductors for general purposes are pure disaster 2. 6 kV DC have no economical advantage over 25 kV 60 Рz AC

Further reading (russian) - http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%AD%...B5_6000_%D0%92
--------
*which was later razed in Georgian civil war in 90th
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Old April 15th, 2014, 03:50 AM   #1375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
Where do level crossings come in? I imagine they would pose a problem for 200km/h.
The UK has several level crossings on the ECML which is 200 km.h operation.
Not ideal, but it is certainly achievable - and there seem to be relatively few collisions with vehicles on them too, perhaps due the the fact the people understand that they'd be obliterated if they got suck on the crossing.
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Old April 15th, 2014, 09:53 AM   #1376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
No idea where they came up with this number. As far as I know, only a few test SLT's have ERTMS built in, plus the Thalys trains, the Traxx locomotives, and I think one ICE3, which doesn't normally run in The Netherlands (I just saw it on the Hanzelijn for the 200km/h test)?
They probably count SLT's as equipped because all SLT's have an EVC+STM, despite lacking some equipment such as antennea and DMI. Thus those sets can't actually run on ERTMS, but can be retrofitted relatively easy (and I wonder why they didn't fit them with DMI's in the first place.)
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Old April 15th, 2014, 10:02 AM   #1377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XAN_ View Post
2. 6 kV DC have no economical advantage over 25 kV 60 Рz AC
The problem was that up untill recently there were no motors capable of handling those high voltages directly, nor were there electronics. Thus you had to step down voltage first before you could actually use it.
Stepping down voltage requires something that in essence resembles a transformer. Therefore it makes more sense to use an even higher AC voltage.
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Old April 15th, 2014, 10:13 AM   #1378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
The problem was that up untill recently there were no motors capable of handling those high voltages directly
You mean there are now ? I was not aware of that, thought that the practical
limit still was 1500V for DC serial motors and around 1000V for 3-phase. Care
to elaborate ?
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Old April 15th, 2014, 01:14 PM   #1379
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High voltage electric motors exist. But just like you state yourself: the practical limit. They're just to heavy to use in a mobile setup.

Thus you needed a control system in between to reduce the voltage to acceptable levels. Until a few years ago you could not feed 3 kV directly into the traction electronics, now you can (which greatly simplifies the circuits). 6 kV as a direct input is, as far as I know, still not possible.
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Old April 15th, 2014, 04:49 PM   #1380
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Yes, experimental trains motors were 1,5 kV high frequency (1,5 kHz) AC
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