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Old April 15th, 2014, 09:51 PM   #1381
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The map in the Railwaygazette article is correct. It comes directly from the letter from the State Secretary for Infrastructure & Environment Wilma Mansveld which outlines the decision.

http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwer...rnatieven.html




ERTMS was already to be equipped on the following lines
Amsterdam - Utrecht
Hanzelijn
OV SAAL: Schiphol - Lelystad

Now it's decided to also be rolled out on the lines which are part of the High Frequency Program (PHS - Programma Hoogfrequent Spoorvervoer)
Alkmaar – Amsterdam
Amsterdam – Utrecht – Eindhoven
Schiphol – Utrecht – Arnhem/Nijmegen
Den Haag – Rotterdam – Breda
Breda - Eindhoven

+ connecting corridors:
- around Haarlem
- Den Haag - Schiphol
- Leiden - Alphen - Woerden/Gouda

And on the the main freight routes which are part of the EU TEN-T Network.
Rotterdam - Hengelo -> Germany
Rotterdam - Roosendaal -> Belgium


The decision to also include the line to Vlissingen is probably freight related, but it's also part of the main IC corridor on the Old Line.


Hilversum - Amersfoort would have made sense from a connection corridor perspective. But I guess because around Amsterdam there are mostly passenger corridors and Amersfoort is on freight corridor there wasn't a direct need to connect these 2 lines.
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Old April 15th, 2014, 10:59 PM   #1382
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Amsterdam-Hilversum will get ERTMS for the OV-SAAL project.

Rotterdam-Hengelo will get ERTMS, mostly for freight purposes.

Once those two projects are completed, they will see it would make sense to also implement ERTMS on that short bit Hilversum-Amersfoort.
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Old April 15th, 2014, 11:29 PM   #1383
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ERTMS is needed on the line to Groningen/Leeuwarden, to allow faster services to the most distant provinces.

Otherwise, Drenthe, Groningen and Friesland will keep having too long travel times to the Randstad.

I still think a high-speed rail is needed to allow places like over there to be within "rail commuting distance for 3x/week workers" of Utrecht and Amsterdam.
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Old April 16th, 2014, 12:28 AM   #1384
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The main reason for the roll out of the ERTMS is not to increase the speed, but to increase the capacity.
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Old April 16th, 2014, 08:43 AM   #1385
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And an increase in safety, especially to mitigate SPAD's.
I believe the intention for rolling out ERTMS on the other lines runs in parallel with the lifespan of the current systems, unless some other reason demands earlier replacement.
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Old April 16th, 2014, 11:38 AM   #1386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
The decision to also include the line to Vlissingen is probably freight related, but it's also part of the main IC corridor on the Old Line.
It must be freight related. Freight trains from Vlissingen travel vast distances on the Old Line even when they're heading to Antwerp, in which case they first have to travel North to classification yard Kijfhoek near Rotterdam where they can turn South towards Antwerp, a situation that is unlikely to change any time soon.
The provincial government of Zeeland had plans for the construction of a short stretch of railroad near Bergen op Zoom so trains coming from Vlissingen could turn South immediately, but those plans were shelved during the crisis years and have yet to be rehabilitated.
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Old April 16th, 2014, 09:47 PM   #1387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
It must be freight related. Freight trains from Vlissingen travel vast distances on the Old Line even when they're heading to Antwerp, in which case they first have to travel North to classification yard Kijfhoek near Rotterdam where they can turn South towards Antwerp, a situation that is unlikely to change any time soon. The provincial government of Zeeland had plans for the construction of a short stretch of railroad near Bergen op Zoom so trains coming from Vlissingen could turn South immediately, but those plans were shelved during the crisis years and have yet to be rehabilitated.
What is keeping freight trains from reversing in Roosendaal?
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Old April 17th, 2014, 11:33 AM   #1388
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Strict rules about freight traffic and complicated maneuvers near built-up areas.
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Old April 17th, 2014, 07:37 PM   #1389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
Strict rules about freight traffic and complicated maneuvers near built-up areas.
Strange... I just had a look on the station from Goggle Earth, and it seems
that this stations contains all what would be needed to make a reversal there.
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Old April 18th, 2014, 11:24 AM   #1390
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I think it's a combination of two factors. The first is safety: Roosendaal's railway yard is right in the middle of the city and its railway station is physically part of it. The classification yard in Kijfhoek is more conveniently located.

Kijfhoek also has humps, which come in handy for certain maneuvers. Roosendaal's humps were demolished in the 1990s iirc.
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Old April 19th, 2014, 12:44 AM   #1391
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Loco reversals are indeed prohibited in Roosendaal out of safety concerns (mostly due to a string of incidents a couple of years ago). But when only a loco reversal is needed the trains don't have to travel all the way to Kijfhoek, it can already be done at Lage Zwaluwe. It doesn't really happen that often since most freight cars from Vlissingen to Belgium do pass Kijfhoek anyway. That's because almost all mixed freight trains from DB Schenker in the Netherlands is routed via Kijfhoek. There are a couple of trains from some places in the Netherlands that are not Kijfhoek where there's enough traffic directly to Köln Gremberg or Hagen Vorhalle. Since DB Schenker doesn't have it's own yard in Belgium they don't deliver the freight-cars directly to SNCB/NMBS Logistics yard at Antwerp.

The NMBS or any other company also don't have any scheduled direct freight trains from Vlissingen to Belgium.
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Old April 19th, 2014, 10:43 AM   #1392
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From Rail Journal:

Quote:
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=542

Nijmegen – Roermond electrification proposed
Wednesday, April 16, 2014

DURING a Parliamentary meeting on railways, Dutch secretary of state for infrastructure, Mrs. Wilma Mansveld announced that the government is willing to provide funds for the electrification of the Maas Line from Nijmegen to Roermond via Venlo.

Negotiations on the financial arrangements and implementation timetable will now be held between the Dutch government and the province of Noord-Limburg. The project is expected to cost between €150m and €175m, and Mansveld expects a final decision to be made by September.

The Dutch government has been discussing the possibility of electrifying other regional lines, although no announcement has yet been made on which routes would benefit.
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Old April 19th, 2014, 11:31 AM   #1393
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Leeuwarden-Groningen should be electrified as well.
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Old April 19th, 2014, 01:44 PM   #1394
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but at 25 kV AC!
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Old April 19th, 2014, 05:34 PM   #1395
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All lines should be prepared for 25kV at least.

Too bad they recently got rid of this recommendation, because of short-sightedness.
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 01:17 AM   #1396
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Why is everybody so obsessed with 25kV? It's not that much better than 3kV. The fact remains that conversion of the whole network from 1.5kV to 25kV would cause major disruptions for several years, something the Dutch network definitely can't afford (aside from 1 summer week). Not to mention out would cost billions, money that could improve the system much more if spent on other projects.
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 01:22 AM   #1397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DingeZ View Post
Why is everybody so obsessed with 25kV?
It is a first step towards running very fast train with high acceleration.

Dutch terrain = flat

Alignment of most railways = straight or only gentle curves

There is a lot of potential for converting most of the lines into 220 km/h with high acceleration trains, which needs a lot of power for which currents would have to be very high with 3kV
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 02:27 AM   #1398
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Quote:
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Why is everybody so obsessed with 25kV?
Money.


25kV will allow more trains to run, with higher acceleration and higher speeds, for lower long-term cost than 3000V.
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 02:33 AM   #1399
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@Suburbanist
You can do that with 3 kV. Modern trains on RFI network are showing performances so impressive that any plan about conversion to 25 is being delayed, over and over...
The new AGV has slightly better performances under 25 kV, but still is a beast with 3. And recently introduced Flirts by Stadler are showing an acceleration suitable for a metro line.

We run many lines at 200/220 (and 250 as well) and we're pretty much happy about it.
The only major disadvantage is that current generated by regenerative braking is not so easy to be handled back into the national network, but this is not a great problem on the densely used Dutch network, since there will always be another bunch of trains ready to use that energy.

By the way, I don't see the point of running 220 km/h in a country were all stops are so close.
A couple of weeks ago I was talking with some RFI people about future lines, they say the experience with 220 km/h lines has not proven to be satisfactory: the costs for reaching 220 instead of 200 are huge (you basically have to build everything with HS standards) while the time gain is ludicrous.
On Mestre - Padova, 29 km, going 220 instead of 200 lets you gain a stunning time of 35 seconds...


For the love of precision: we talk about "3 kV" but today the output of the lines is actually 3,6 kV.
Is the Dutch network set exactly at 1,5?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Money.


25kV will allow more trains to run, with higher acceleration and higher speeds, for lower long-term cost than 3000V.
This is the kind of matter that is true in theory but that practice is pushing away little by little. What you say is true, there is a global advantage, but the advancements of 3 kV technology are moving the BEP to a much farer future; and there will be more.

I would still consider 25 kV if I had to run a network full of much faster trains, but I don't think this is the future of NL.
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Last edited by Wilhem275; April 22nd, 2014 at 02:42 AM.
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 03:15 AM   #1400
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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
@Suburbanist

For the love of precision: we talk about "3 kV" but today the output of the lines is actually 3,6 kV.
Is the Dutch network set exactly at 1,5?

Around 1800, I believe.
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