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Old April 22nd, 2014, 03:19 AM   #1401
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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
@Suburbanist

I would still consider 25 kV if I had to run a network full of much faster trains, but I don't think this is the future of NL.
The future of trains in NL is more and more trains, not so much speed. This is cheaper with 25kV.

Combine that with a need to increase the speed on IC and IC+ type services to 200 km/h, and 25kV just makes sense, even if 3000V seems cheaper in the short term.

There are plenty of longer distance services in NL that would benefit from an increase from 140 km/h to 200 km/h.
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 04:15 AM   #1402
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I still think 250 km/h with high acceleration should be the target.

I think the future of lines like UTrecht-Eindhoven is full grade separation + in-cab signaling. Given these conditions, speeding trains up is easier.
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 09:16 AM   #1403
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It is a first step towards running very fast train with high acceleration.

Dutch terrain = flat

Alignment of most railways = straight or only gentle curves

There is a lot of potential for converting most of the lines into 220 km/h with high acceleration trains, which needs a lot of power for which currents would have to be very high with 3kV
A lot more is involved in increasing line speed then you seem to realize.
The biggest issue isn't even the overhead. It's the railway alignment. Increasing the speed to 200kph and beyond involves things like moving the track centers apart. That might mean that most bridges need to be rebuild for example. On many lines you would have to replace even the subgrade. You are effectively building a new line...
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 12:11 PM   #1404
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By the way, I don't see the point of running 220 km/h in a country were all stops are so close.
Nail. Head. Hit.
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 01:07 PM   #1405
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By the way, I don't see the point of running 220 km/h in a country were all stops are so close.
It is not quite so simple. While capacity might be the vastly bigger concern for internal traffic in the Netherlands, there remains the issue with fast links to cities outside the NL. With HSL Zuid a first fast link has already been built. Something similar would now be desirable for traffic from/to western and northern Germany as well.
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 01:13 PM   #1406
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A lot more is involved in increasing line speed then you seem to realize.
The biggest issue isn't even the overhead. It's the railway alignment. Increasing the speed to 200kph and beyond involves things like moving the track centers apart. That might mean that most bridges need to be rebuild for example. On many lines you would have to replace even the subgrade. You are effectively building a new line...
Over time, it can be done. And should be done. Many sectors are in need of 4-tracks as well, like Houten-Eindhoven and Utrecht-Arnhem-Nijmegen
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 09:07 PM   #1407
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On the stretch Houten - Eindhoven the biggest issue is the at-grade intersections at Geldermalsen combined with the island platform (meaning the stopping services to and from Tiel need to cross the outer through tracks before they can halt). Some sort of extra capacity would be nice as well, which would also open up space for an extra station in the northern part of Den Bosch.

On Utrecht - Arnhem I don't see anything happening anytime soon. Driebergen - Zeist will be reconstructed and will feature 4 tracks (all with platform as far as I know), but other than that... There isn't much space and it will be very expensive. An extra issue is that there are some at-grade crossings in Ede that will need to be eliminated before NS is allowed to run extra trains on that sections. So an upgrade on this stretch is really expensive.

Same holds for Arnhem - Nijmegen, but in theory they should be able to run non-stop and stopping services both six times per hour (although stopping services might have to be capped at 4 times per hour if they also want to run freight services) on that section after they finish the works at station Elst. When the stopping service to Tiel will only run between Elst and Tiel that section is actually quite straightforward.
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 09:29 PM   #1408
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The intention is keep the train between Arnhem and Tiel running on that route, opposed to shortening it to Elst.
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 10:02 PM   #1409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
It is not quite so simple. While capacity might be the vastly bigger concern for internal traffic in the Netherlands, there remains the issue with fast links to cities outside the NL. With HSL Zuid a first fast link has already been built. Something similar would now be desirable for traffic from/to western and northern Germany as well.
Well, I agree the links with Germany are awfully slow. My first time with the ICE3M (via Venlo) was a total delusion. A friend, last week, tried it (via Oberhausen) and said that too.
I actually believe NS should use those trains today on HSL Zuid and give up "fast" trains with Germany until fast lines are ready. Right now they use high speed, expensive trains on 80-140 km/h lines... just to have a quick run between Cologne and Frankfurt (where alternatives are not missing).

Right now I'm writing an essay about the problem of capacity vs. speed (in N-E Italy). My main inspiration is the Ruhr setup: they have fast lines from outer regions (Frankfurt, Aachen, Hannover) up to the first main city, then they don't care about speed anymore because all cities are important.



You can clearly see which corner is missing a fast link

I think the first step is activating 200 km/h on Amsterdam - Utrecht, then make Arnhem - Oberhausen much faster (ABS or NBS), 53' is really too much for 80 km.
I don't know the situation of Utrecht - Arnhem, if more capacity/speed is obtainable without major works, probably you would need 4 tracks.


About Amsterdam - Berlin, there would be a weird solution...
Today:
Amsterdam - Bad Bentheim 2h35' (my God...)
Bad Bentheim - Berlin Hbf 3h47'

But...
Amsterdam - Oberhausen Hbf 1h54' (and we should make it at least 1h30')
Oberhausen - Essen ~10'
Essen Hbf - Berlin Hbf 3h42'

My suggestion? Concentrate on Amsterdam - Oberhausen @ 200, give up Osnabrück, and you'll shave at least 1 hour off Amsterdam - Berlin...
And keep Osnabrück - Amersfoort as a standard IC link, slow as it is.
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 10:21 PM   #1410
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Maybe they could save time if they ran ICE to Frankfurt via Rotterdam, Antwerpen, Zaventen Airport, Louvain, Liege and Aachen, using the various high-speed links and the also fast Diabolo connector.
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 10:35 PM   #1411
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Man, I think you vastly overrate the effects of those lines on travel time
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 10:38 PM   #1412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
The intention is keep the train between Arnhem and Tiel running on that route, opposed to shortening it to Elst.
So what's the use of the third platform?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Maybe they could save time if they ran ICE to Frankfurt via Rotterdam, Antwerpen, Zaventen Airport, Louvain, Liege and Aachen, using the various high-speed links and the also fast Diabolo connector.
Maybe to get from Rotterdam to Frankfurt yes (although it won't be much). However, the relation between central Netherlands (basically triangle Amsterdam - Rotterdam - Arnhem) and the Ruhr area will not be helped by that and the ICE primarily serves those urban centers. Amsterdam - Frankfurt or Amsterdam - Stuttgart is faster by plane anyway, if speed is your main concern.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
I think the first step is activating 200 km/h on Amsterdam - Utrecht, then make Arnhem - Oberhausen much faster (ABS or NBS), 53' is really too much for 80 km.
I don't know the situation of Utrecht - Arnhem, if more capacity/speed is obtainable without major works, probably you would need 4 tracks.
I agree it's too slow. The ICE is basically limited by the 140km/h speed limit on the section between Utrecht and border (and beyond, the train doesn't speed up significantly in Germany either). It's not easy to fix that, there are a lot of at-grade intersections and slow stopping services on that stretch. A dedicated new HS track is completely out of the question for the forseeable future.

Don't forget NS doesn't own the ICE's, they're property of DB (apart from 2 or 3 as far as I remember, not enough for a full service somewhere else).
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 11:46 PM   #1413
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Don't forget NS doesn't own the ICE's, they're property of DB (apart from 2 or 3 as far as I remember, not enough for a full service somewhere else).
Four ICE trains are on the NS roster.
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 12:11 AM   #1414
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Arnhem - Nijmegen is congested. The Intercity trains Roosendal-Zwolle, for instance, have to make extra local stops between Anrhem and Nijmegen as there is no path for them to travel directly, which adds some 5 minutes in total travel time.
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 12:27 AM   #1415
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So what's the use of the third platform?
Shorter planning of trains from Arnhem towards Nijmegen. As the train to Tiel takes points to leave the main line, an IC to Nijmegen can be timetabled to follow that Tiel train a bit more narrower.


The original plan was to complete isolate the train to Tiel (with just one very low-speed turnout from the main line), which is why the current layout was designed, approved and is currently being built. The extra point (to allow trains from Arnhem to diverge) will probably be built at a later stage...

This is something typically Dutch, and is one of the reasons why projects are usually delivered late and costs overrun...
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 08:41 AM   #1416
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My suggestion? Concentrate on Amsterdam - Oberhausen @ 200, give up Osnabrück, and you'll shave at least 1 hour off Amsterdam - Berlin...
And keep Osnabrück - Amersfoort as a standard IC link, slow as it is.
The current Amsterdam -Berlin train loses a lot of time, because it's a regular Intercity in the Netherlands. It stops at Hilversum, Amersfoort, Apeldoorn, Deventer, Almelo and Hengelo before arriving at Bad Bentheim for a time consuming loco change.

They should electrify and (if needed) double track the Zwolle - Almelo route and then reroute the Amsterdam - Berlin train via Zwolle and use a multi-system loco's until the ICx's arrive. The elimination of several stops and the posibility to do 200 km/h on the Hanzelijn and 140 km/h from Zwolle to Wierden, instead of 130 km/h on the current route, will reduce travel time considerably.
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 11:40 AM   #1417
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If you're waiting for the ICx trains to run in the Netherlands you're in for a long wait as DB canceled the option for our country.
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 12:08 PM   #1418
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My understanding is slightly different: Because of increased domestic demand the original order was changed: The multi-system option on the short sets was dropped and the length of the long sets was increased by 2 carriages. A next order may still include international versions, but delivery will not be expected before 2025. The current carriages on the other hand don't have eternal life either. Remember that most of them are also already over 30 years old.

Despite everything: Everytime I rode this service it was pretty crowded with lots of international passengers. Thus there is to much demand to just drop it.
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 06:52 PM   #1419
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I find it stupid that there is no HSR between NL and DE.
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 06:59 PM   #1420
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I actually believe NS should use those trains today on HSL Zuid and give up "fast" trains with Germany until fast lines are ready. Right now they use high speed, expensive trains on 80-140 km/h lines... just to have a quick run between Cologne and Frankfurt (where alternatives are not missing).
Arnhem - Oberhausen is 160 kph, and Duisburg - Köln 200 kph.
Anyway, for Amsterdam - Köln - Frankfurt trains this is by far the fastest route.

It would have been different if the original TGV plan the the transport minister De Croo proposed would have been built...
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