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Old April 24th, 2014, 08:47 AM   #1421
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LtBk View Post
I find it stupid that there is no HSR between NL and DE.
Yeah, the HSL East to Germany was only scrapped because we completely messed up with the planning and construction of the HSL Zuid and the Betuweroute freight line that were hopelessly over budget and delayed. That completely changed the opinions of the politicians on these large rail projects. With the continuing problems on the HSL Zuid there's no chance that any new major international railway line will be constructed anytime soon.
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Old April 24th, 2014, 10:45 AM   #1422
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It's not as if the Germans are jumping eagerly at the opportunity. Are they even considering to consider constructing a connection to the Betuweroute yet?
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Old April 24th, 2014, 11:50 AM   #1423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
Yeah, the HSL East to Germany was only scrapped because we completely messed up with the planning and construction of the HSL Zuid and the Betuweroute freight line that were hopelessly over budget and delayed. That completely changed the opinions of the politicians on these large rail projects. With the continuing problems on the HSL Zuid there's no chance that any new major international railway line will be constructed anytime soon.
Altough they've learned from their mistakes while building the HSL-Zuid and Betuweroute. The Hanzeline (Lelystad-Zwolle) was finished on time and it was even 90 million euros cheaper than budgeted so it is possible. But I think it will take decades before we might see a HSL-East and maybe even a (HSL) connection Groningen-Bremen.

But in other news Arriva showed interest (Dutch) to start an international service between Eindhoven and Düsseldorf.
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Old April 24th, 2014, 01:29 PM   #1424
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Construction of HSL-Zuid went mostly okay. IT didn't have major problems, which were/are related to rolling stock.
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Old April 24th, 2014, 05:01 PM   #1425
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It's unfortunate, but maybe with pressure from outside groups they can built a new line sooner

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
It's not as if the Germans are jumping eagerly at the opportunity. Are they even considering to consider constructing a connection to the Betuweroute yet?
Yes:http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/s...de-signed.html
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Old April 24th, 2014, 09:04 PM   #1426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Construction of HSL-Zuid went mostly okay. IT didn't have major problems, which were/are related to rolling stock.
I you would have followed the progress since the start of the project you would have come to a completely different conclusion.

The completion of the line was not delayed by 5 years for nothing. It was also over budget for 4,3 billion Euro on a initial budget of 3,3 billion Euro. True, most of delays were not caused by construction problems. But the planning process is also part of a construction project, and that was the background of most of the delays. Constant changes to the design because of new demands from the government, local politicians and NIMBYs have caused lots and lots of extra work to be done.

The problems with the rolling stock only came after the problems with the construction, making the whole project an even bigger farce.
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Old April 25th, 2014, 01:22 AM   #1427
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The HSL infrastructure got delivered about 2 years late, due to problems with the infrastructure and signalling. The noise prevention measures used in Brabant were inadequate (inferior materials were used) and the ERTMS system was not stable. The infrastructure was handed over in december 2008 (the Belgian part followed early 2009), first commercial services ran in september 2009.
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Old April 25th, 2014, 01:27 AM   #1428
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Anyway, given the distance of Arnhem - Oberhausen a proper HSL is not needed, so this is a nonproblem

I guess with the improvement of the line (link by LtBk) a higher speed will come; if they can get it to 200, the job is done...
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Old April 25th, 2014, 02:11 PM   #1429
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Following the 3kV/25kV discussion I've compiled some data, compiled from several sources around the net:
1.5 kVDC (Standard system in the Netherlands)
Nominal voltage: 1500 VDC
Practical voltage: 1800 VDC
Max. current per section: 4000A
Max. power per section at nominal voltage: 6MW
Max. power per section at practical voltage: 7.2MW
1.5 kVDC (Practical technical limit in the Netherlands)
Nominal voltage: 1500 VDC
Practical voltage: 1800 VDC
Max. current per section: 5000A
Max. power per section at nominal voltage: 7.5MW
Max. power per section at practical voltage: 9MW
3 kVDC (Standard system in Belgium)
Nominal voltage: 3000 VDC
Practical voltage: 3300 VDC
Max. current per section: 2400A
Max. power per section at nominal voltage: 7.2MW
Max. power per section at practical voltage: 7.9MW
3 kVDC (Used between Antwerp and Brussels)
Nominal voltage: 3000 VDC
Practical voltage: 3300 VDC
Max. current per section: 4000A
Max. power per section at nominal voltage: 12MW
Max. power per section at practical voltage: 13.2MW
3 kVDC (Practical technical limit?)
Asumption: If you can supply [email protected], that should also be possible at 3kV
Nominal voltage: 3000 VDC
Practical voltage: 3300 VDC
Max. current per section: 5000A
Max. power per section at nominal voltage: 15MW
Max. power per section at practical voltage: 16.5MW
25 kVAC (Betuwe route)
Nominal voltage: 25000 VAC
Practical voltage: 27000 VAC
Max. current per section: 500A
Power factor trains < 6 MW: >0.90
Power factor trains > 6 MW: >0.95
TRAXX is most common locomotive at 5.6MW, thus asume power factor of 0.9
Max. power per section at nominal voltage: 12.5MVA x 0.9 = 11.3MW
Max. power per section at practical voltage: 13.5MVA x 0.9 = 12.2MW
25 kVAC (HSL Zuid)
Nominal voltage: 25000 VAC
Practical voltage: 27000 VAC
Max. current per section: 1500A
Power factor trains < 6 MW: >0.90
Power factor trains > 6 MW: >0.95
High speed train > 6MW is the most common rolling stock, thus asume power factor of 0.95
Max. power per section at nominal voltage: 37.5kVA x 0.95 = 35.6MW
Max. power per section at practical voltage: 40.5kVA x 0.95 = 38.5MW
My take: The 1.5 kV system is reaching it's limits after over 80 years of use. Switch to 3kV asap, solve all the infrastructure problems prohibiting 25 kV and in some 30 years, when the 3kV equipment reaches the end of it's service life switch to 25 kV.
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Old April 27th, 2014, 01:55 AM   #1430
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Emmerich-Oberhausen and NL-DE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
It's not as if the Germans are jumping eagerly at the opportunity. Are they even considering to consider constructing a connection to the Betuweroute yet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LtBk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Anyway, given the distance of Arnhem - Oberhausen a proper HSL is not needed, so this is a nonproblem

I guess with the improvement of the line (link by LtBk) a higher speed will come; if they can get it to 200, the job is done...
As mentioned in the article the planning for an upgrade of Emmerich-Oberhausen is on the way. Capacity shall be increased by a third track and shorter block sections. The two outer tracks shall be used by slower trains (local trains and slow freight trains), the inner track shall be used by the long-distance/high-speed trains and faster freight trains. In the long term it should be possible to increase speeds to 200 km/h (level crossings will be removed during the upgrade, ECTS is installed), however this is not planned for the coming upgrade. More information in German can be found here.

High-Speed connection between NL and DE should also in my opinion first be focused on Amsterdam-Utrecht-Arnhem-Oberhausen as the route via Bad Bentheim is really slow. Amsterdam-Utrecht is already prepared for faster services, Emmerich-Oberhausen is 160 km/h with possibility for 200 km/h in the future. So Utrecht to the border should be upgraded to 200 km/h (is that realistic at all or is it even more likely that a new HSL will be built?).

For Amsterdam-Hannover-Berlin a new service should then be introduced, while the slow IC is still running via Osnabrück as suggested by Wilhelm275. Bundling of services between Amsterdam and Duisburg and Duisburg and Hannover/Berlin allows for attractive connections. For example:
Amsterdam-Duisburg-Köln/Frankfurt every two hours
Amsterdam-Duisburg-Hannover/Berlin every other two hours

Furthermore, the Hannover-Ruhrgebiet line has potential for speed and capacity upgrade (especially between Hannover and Minden, where there are only two tracks). This line is more likely to be upgraded than any stretch on the Hannover-Osnabrück-NL line. However, it does not have high priority in the infrastructure plans for the next years.

I don't like rerouting the IC Amsterdam-Hannover-Berlin via Zwolle that much as it complicates connections and increases travel time to a lot of important destinations besides Amsterdam - like Utrecht, Den Haag and Rotterdam - compared to the route via Arnhem and Utrecht. And as you can assume from my 'locations' on the left, I travel between Utrecht and Hannover from time to time
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Last edited by telemaxx; April 27th, 2014 at 02:03 AM.
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Old April 27th, 2014, 02:10 AM   #1431
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Upgrading Utrecht - Arnhem to 200 kph is brought up from time to time, but is unlikely to occur as it requires heavy investments in infrastructure. One of the things that has to be done is straightening some curves, yet this is difficult because the A12 motorway is very close to the railway line.

Then there are level crossings which should be closed and intermediate stations will have to be re-built to have their platforms away from 200 kph through tracks.
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Old April 27th, 2014, 03:25 AM   #1432
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I'm more worried about capacity. Running an hourly 200 km/h service requires a headway which may cause conflicts with existing services, not mentioning freight traffic...
On the other hand, one day Amsterdam - Nijmegen ICs may use 200 km/h trains, too, so the speed may end up being more homogeneous.

But speed itself is not a great problem, 95% of the line is straight like an arrow and those few curves are not really hard to widen (and I'm not even sure they need it).

Probably a solution would be to have 4 tracks from Vaartsche Rijn to Veenendal's junction.

Level crossings should be closed anyway, on such an important link; platforms are not a problem, many countries run 200+ trains close to passenger platforms, and if you're still worried some cheap railings will solve all problems.



Even with those works, it would still come at a price tag with one zero less than a full HSL... whose total lenght would be inefficient anyway.
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Old April 27th, 2014, 02:38 PM   #1433
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The Tweede Kamer (Parliament) has decided that the new IC which will be delivered from 2021 shall have the possibility to ride 200 km/h.

Possible corridors are:
Quote:
"Geleidelijk kunnen ook andere spoorlijnen worden aangepast voor hogere snelheden. Kansrijk zijn de trajecten Utrecht - Eindhoven, Gouda - Utrecht - Arnhem, Zwolle - Groningen/Leeuwarden en Amersfoort - Apeldoorn", aldus het Kamerlid
"Step by step other railway lines [than Amsterdam-Utrecht and Hanzelijn] can be adapted for higher speeds. Promising are the tracks Utrecht - Eindhoven, Gouda - Utrecht - Arnhem, Zwolle - Groningen/Leeuwarden and Amersfoort - Apeldoorn", says the member of parliament.

NS says that Den Haag-Schiphol-Lelystad-Zwolle-Groningen, Den Heelder-Maastricht and Schiphol-Nijmegen are possible corridors for 200 km/h services.

For Utrecht-Arnhem it seems to me that 4 tracks are necessary once some trains travel 200 km/h, so that fast trains (IC/ICE) do not get in conflict with slower trains (Sprinter/freight trains).

Besides, I found a document regarding complete renewal of the track layout east and west of Utrecht Centraal and construction of a new platform (Doorstroomstation Utrecht). Until 2015 150 of 200 switches shall be removed and trains shall run on specific corridors into the station to increase capacity, reliability and speed. Right now trains before and after Utrecht Centraal can only travel 40 km/h, in the future it shall be 80 km/h, so trains can travel faster longer.
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Old May 7th, 2014, 09:14 PM   #1434
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From Rail Journal:

Quote:
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=542

New Dutch-German regional services planned
May 07, 2014

AUTHORITIES in northwest Germany and the Netherlands have reached an agreement to finance a new cross-border regional service between Bielefeld, Osnabrück, and Hengelo as part of the new Teutoburger Wald regional concession, which is due to start in December 2017.

Under the deal between Westphalia-Lippe Local Transport Association (ZNWL), Lower Saxony Regional Transport, and the public transport authorities of the Dutch province of Overijssel and the Twente region, RB61 services currently operated by Westfalenbahn will be extended beyond the border station at Bad Bentheim to serve stations in the Netherlands. The distance by rail between Bad Bentheim and Hengelo is 26.1km, 18km of which is in Dutch territory.

Operating costs for the service are expected to be around €2.55m, of which €1.55m will be covered by Dutch public transport authorities. The German states of North Rhine-Westphalia and Lower Saxony will contribute €250,000 and €750,000 respectively.

At present the only cross-border service between Bad Bentheim and Hengelo is the two-hourly regular-interval inter-city service between Amsterdam Central and Berlin East. In December 2013 the so-called Grensland Express, an hourly regional service operated by Dutch train and bus operator Syntus between Hengelo and Bad Bentheim, was withdrawn due to insufficient ridership. This service was funded by the European Union.

The extension of RB 61 into the Netherlands will require a fleet of trains capable of operating under both the German 15 kV ac and Dutch 1.5kV dc electrification systems.

A tender notice has already been published in the Official Journal of the European Union to invite operators to bid for the contract, which runs for 15 years from December 2017 and covers the operation of around 5.3 million train-km per year. In addition to RB 61, the concession includes four other routes in Germany:
  • RB 65 Münster – Rheine
  • RB 66 Rheine – Osnabrück
  • RB 72 Paderborn – Altenbeken – Herford, and
  • RB 78 Nienburg – Bielefeld (– Rheda – Wiedenbrück)
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Old May 16th, 2014, 08:54 PM   #1435
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Have NS stopped accepting Maestro? I opened an account with the only UK bank I could find that would let me open a bank account that would give me a Maestro card (almost all bank accounts in the UK now only give a Mastercard debit or Visa debit card). I tried to use the card at Dordrecht station yesterday and my card didn't work.

I notice the only option for payment on the screen was 'Pinpas'. There used to be an option for 'Maestro' as well.
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Old May 16th, 2014, 09:13 PM   #1436
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All debit cards in the Netherlands comes under "pinpas" which basically has the meaning of a card with pin number.
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Old May 16th, 2014, 09:35 PM   #1437
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All debit cards in the Netherlands comes under "pinpas" which basically has the meaning of a card with pin number.
Does that mean only Dutch debit cards are valid now? I also tried the card in Albert Heijn and it didn't work there either. But I could withdraw money with the card at an ATM in Dordrecht so the card was working, and I also used the card for a debit card purchase in the UK today.

As an aside, I thought that Albert Heijn was quite an upmarket supermarket, yet they don't accept Mastercard/Visa, but Kijkshop did accept my Mastercard.
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Old May 16th, 2014, 10:11 PM   #1438
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All stores in the Netherlands have accepted my Austrian maestro card so far, but I don't think it works in unmanned machines though.

Same in Germany, where they've got warning signs at petrol stations along Autobahns, warning drivers in Dutch that Dutch debit cards are not accepted.

The Netherlands are lacking a bit behind to the rest of the world when it comes to credit card payments.
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Old May 16th, 2014, 10:35 PM   #1439
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All stores in the Netherlands have accepted my Austrian maestro card so far, but I don't think it works in unmanned machines though.
So your Austrian Maestro card won't work at the ticket machines, but would it work at the ticket office?
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Old May 16th, 2014, 11:14 PM   #1440
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I don't know, I never tried it. But it worked at places like Kijkshop, Albert Heijn and petrol stations.
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