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Old May 19th, 2014, 01:00 AM   #1461
radamfi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theijs View Post
"because of fraud we don't expand this service to more stations."
Why is fraud more likely from credit cards? They are already accepting them at most of their main stations, where surely fraud is more likely than at rural stations with no ticket office.
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Old May 19th, 2014, 01:55 AM   #1462
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They only use it at main stations for tourists. If there wouldn't be tourists they wouldn't have accepted them at all.
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Old May 19th, 2014, 01:39 PM   #1463
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Dutch railroads unsafer because of ERTMS?

In the Netherlands many trains run on tracks that switch between unprotected, ATB-EG, ATB-NG, ERTMS L1 and ERTMS L2 several times per day. Some of those trains even cross the border, with yet other systems again.

According to this source (in Dutch) railway experts have expressed their concerns over a future mixed ATB-ERTMS railway network in the Netherlands. They claim that the drivers may get used to the safety net ERTMS provides, causing them to drive more careless under the old ATB system. They claim after the introduction of ATB-NG some accidents happened on ATB-EG tracks, because the driver expected a safety to kick in that didn't.

The experts are seriously arguing that a driver relies on the train control system to keep them safe. I claim the opposite: A driver drives the train, the train control system is only there to protect against the consequences from the mistakes that he bound to make. This weekend I spoke with an active and a former train driver. Both agreed with me.
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Old May 19th, 2014, 02:38 PM   #1464
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The problem is that this
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
I claim the opposite: A driver drives the train, the train control system is only there to protect against the consequences from the mistakes that he bound to make. This weekend I spoke with an active and a former train driver. Both agreed with me.
is what should be, but this
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Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
The experts are seriously arguing that a driver relies on the train control system to keep them safe.
is what happens in reality.

Not because drivers want to be careless on purpose, but because humans tend to get used to helping technologies and then pay less attention.

When designing a fail-safe system you must always consider that humans will make mistakes, no matter what.
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Old May 20th, 2014, 01:28 PM   #1465
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The unfortunate truth is also that driver education has been severely reduced over the last years. Contrary to the past drivers are actually taught to rely on those systems more. In the past drivers could actually fix problems, whereas nowadays, except for 'have you tried turning it off and on again?', there really isn't much else you can do in case of problems.

A train control system should be a fail-safe and leave the actual driving to the driver. Most modern systems don't. Most are so comprehensive in their functions that the driver is there only to perform the tasks that are still to difficult to be performed by a computer. The resulting tasks are so monotonous, that that will decrease the drivers attention when it is actually needed. Maybe less automation on trains would be better.
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Old May 20th, 2014, 01:43 PM   #1466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
A train control system should be a fail-safe and leave the actual driving to the driver. Most modern systems don't. Most are so comprehensive in their functions that the driver is there only to perform the tasks that are still to difficult to be performed by a computer. The resulting tasks are so monotonous, that that will decrease the drivers attention when it is actually needed. Maybe less automation on trains would be better.
I disagree. For repetitive tasks, machines usually are more reliable than humans. In the future, drivers will be more like supervisors of an entirely computer-driven vehicle, on the lookout for problems, not for driving. Maybe with future precision infrared cameras, even closing and opening of doors in stations will be automated.
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Old May 20th, 2014, 01:51 PM   #1467
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Quote:
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I disagree. For repetitive tasks, machines usually are more reliable than humans. In the future, drivers will be more like supervisors of an entirely computer-driven vehicle, on the lookout for problems, not for driving. Maybe with future precision infrared cameras, even closing and opening of doors in stations will be automated.
That's not safe. That's positively dangerous. Even little things like laptop's or smartphones are known to lead a life of its own from time to time. Uncontrollable malfunctioning machinery is the greatest danger to mankind.

And supervisors are there to sleep. Nothing else. There's a Homer Simpson in all of us.
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Old May 20th, 2014, 02:26 PM   #1468
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That's not safe. That's positively dangerous. Even little things like laptop's or smartphones are known to lead a life of its own from time to time. Uncontrollable malfunctioning machinery is the greatest danger to mankind.

And supervisors are there to sleep. Nothing else. There's a Homer Simpson in all of us.
That is about training. Once again, I make a parallel with airline pilots: they are "idling" some 90% of flight time, just looking at screens and reading messages, graphs and info on them, while the computer actually "flies" the plane. Aviation has never been so safe (much safer than rail travel, but that is another discussion).

You just need to train people constantly to be responsive to emergencies and unexpected events.
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Old May 20th, 2014, 02:43 PM   #1469
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With so much time spent on training and brainwashing, you might as well drive the damn thing yourself!
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Old May 20th, 2014, 08:10 PM   #1470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
That's not safe. That's positively dangerous. Even little things like laptop's or smartphones are known to lead a life of its own from time to time. Uncontrollable malfunctioning machinery is the greatest danger to mankind.

And supervisors are there to sleep. Nothing else. There's a Homer Simpson in all of us.
There are plenty of driverless Metros around, and I haven't heard of chaos and rider protests. Even systems like the DLR in London or the Nuremburg U Bahn are heavily monitored so no system is allowed to wander off by itself. the Homer Simpson problem is more for bored/tired drivers passing red lights etc.
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Old May 21st, 2014, 12:06 AM   #1471
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Paper tickets are to be withdrawn from 9 July, replaced by disposable smartcards

http://nos.nl/artikel/650426-einde-p...er-9-juli.html
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Old May 21st, 2014, 12:08 AM   #1472
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And what about international tickets?
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Old May 21st, 2014, 12:42 AM   #1473
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It was about time
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Old May 21st, 2014, 12:44 AM   #1474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
And what about international tickets?
They will probably keep using it. All stations that are visited by international trains also have ticket offices, as far as I know. So that shouldn't be a problem for ticket issuance on machines (which, in any case, is usually not a good idea as you can often find cheaper tickets to Belgium or Germany online; travel on Thalys cannot be bought on NS machines anyway).
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Old May 21st, 2014, 01:48 AM   #1475
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NS is working with SNCB, DB and SNCF to have them print barcodes on tickets they issue which allow travel to the Netherlands. Some gates will be equipped with barcode readers, so they can pass through. If a passenger does not have a ticket with a barcode when he arrives at a gate, he can request for help and then the gate will be opened remotely.

That's the idea at least...
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Old May 21st, 2014, 02:13 AM   #1476
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Yep, my doubt is not about tickets issued by NS, but about tickets issued by other companies which include trips inside NL.
Trips which may also begin/end at a minor station, so I hope that remote opening will work (and I hope operators will show a bit of mercy to stranded passengers...).
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I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
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Old May 21st, 2014, 07:43 AM   #1477
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
NS is working with SNCB, DB and SNCF to have them print barcodes on tickets they issue which allow travel to the Netherlands. Some gates will be equipped with barcode readers, so they can pass through. If a passenger does not have a ticket with a barcode when he arrives at a gate, he can request for help and then the gate will be opened remotely. That's the idea at least...
How long until everyone knows that all you need to enter a station is a good story? (And maybe a good fake ticket...)
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Old May 21st, 2014, 12:41 PM   #1478
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How long until everyone knows that all you need to enter a station is a good story? (And maybe a good fake ticket...)
Presumably there will still be checks on trains as usual? So the barriers are just extra.

The experience in the UK, though, is that barriers have led to reduced checking on train.
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Old May 21st, 2014, 01:22 PM   #1479
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Smaller station will not get barriers. The frequency of onboard checks varies. I regularly do the eastern Netherlands to Schiphol run. Sometimes you get checked every 20 minutes or so, but more often not at all (either because it's to crowded to traverse the train or because the conductor doesn't feel the need to).
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Old May 21st, 2014, 10:01 PM   #1480
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Is there a list of stations with gates, and which stations will have staff to help you through the gates if you don't have an OV-Chipkaart? At stations with staffed gates, what time of day will there be staff and when there are no staff, will the gates still be in operation?
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