daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old July 21st, 2014, 11:57 PM   #1601
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

Personally, I hate the gates in Dutch railway and subway stations. This is not due to the concept of gates an sich (they work fine in Paris and London), but due to the way the Dutch gates are designed and work. I find the man-machine interface quite confusing due to the placement of the display and the reader and I feel that the doors open and close way too slowly.

On Dutch gates the display which gives you oh so vital information about the status of your transaction (OK, error, unsufficient balance, card blocked, etc.) is placed directly above the reader at an awkward angle. This forces you to look down towards your right when you want to go through a gate, which is unnatural behavior.

Dutch gates typically look like this:


On the contrary, ticket gates for the London Underground look like this:
image hosted on flickr


I find that the LU gates make more sense for a few reasons:
1) The status arrow which indicates if a gate is open for business, is at eye height. This immediately catches your attention.
2) The reader is to your right, at normal height. High enough for adults to be able to reach it easily, yet children can also place their smartcards on it.
3) The display is integrated into the status arrow, so you don't have to look at the reader to see if your transaction is succesful. Although I didn't find the information shown on the LU gates to be particularely useful* the information was more easily seen and interpreted by me than on their Dutch counterparts.
4) The LU gates look like a barrier, whereas the Dutch gates feel like a prison due to their height. There are some gates which are lower, I've been told that is because the architect 'disliked the tall gates'.

Here's a rather cringeworthy video, in Dutch... that basically shows what is wrong with the system while it intends to promote it.


Something noteworthy: You will have to stand outside of the gate before attempting to check in or out. I can't see why they'd design it like that...

* I've only seen it show "Seek assistance" when something went wrong, as opposed to Dutch validators which give somewhat more detailed information.
__________________
We are shaping the future

Last edited by AlexNL; July 22nd, 2014 at 12:49 AM.
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old July 22nd, 2014, 08:28 PM   #1602
radamfi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Crawley
Posts: 551
Likes (Received): 58

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
* I've only seen it show "Seek assistance" when something went wrong, as opposed to Dutch validators which give somewhat more detailed information.
When the London gates say "Seek assistance" there is also a two digit code which the attendant knows the meaning of. Similar gates are used on the normal railway across the country, especially in south east England. When someone is trying to exit the gate, the attendant will examine the ticket and if the ticket is invalid or no ticket is held, then depending on the staff available, a new ticket will be sold, the passenger is told to buy a ticket at the ticket office, a penalty fare is given, or name and address is taken so the passenger can be pursued for prosecution.

There is a difference is that the Dutch gates are supposed to operate unmanned whereas in Britain the gates are almost always manned when in operation. When the staff go on a break or go home, the barriers are then left open. That may be why the Dutch gates have to be higher as you need a bigger deterrent against people jumping them. The British gates are not usually jumped because someone is always watching.

Gates are installed, of course, mostly to stop people without tickets travelling in the first place. However, in Britain they also used to catch people who have ended their journey. That is possible because they are manned. What happens if you arrive at a Dutch gate without a valid ticket and there are no staff?
radamfi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 22nd, 2014, 11:52 PM   #1603
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

If you end up on the inside of a Dutch station without a valid ticket (and no OV-chipkaart either) you can do a few things:

1) Go to an Info+SOS post which is on the inside of every gate. Request assistance by pushing the Info button and make up some excuse for why you don't have a ticket. This will connect you to the central control room. The operator will likely open the gate remotely for you if no staff is around to assist you on-site.

2) Apply enough pressure against the gate doors. The alarm will start to sound but the gate will let you through, as it is required by national law to have escape routes.

3) Use the emergency button located on the inside of the gated area. This will definitely trigger alarms, but it will also open all gates to allow passengers to quickly evacuate the station.




If you do happen to have an OV-chipkaart with you which is loaded with enough balance (the usual 4, 10 or 20 euros) you can present your card to the reader. The gate will open (even if you have not started a journey) but the reader will deduct the maximum fare.

This is because most ticket gates are directional: they are only designed for touching in, or out, but not both. If you touch your card on the same reader 3 times in a row, it will deduct the maximum fare 3 times in a row.

A very peculiar example can be found at Rotterdam Blaak railway station. On the platform, there are validators for both NS (train) and RET (Rotterdam area public transport). When leaving the train, you have to touch out with NS first. However, touching in at an RET post is not as simple.

Above Blaak railway station is the subway station. One side of the platform was too small for gates, so they placed validators instead. That's the one on the platform besides the NS validator. However, if you are going in the opposite direction you will encounter gates. If you have touched in at the RET validator on the platform and then touch your card on the reader at the gates, the machine checks you in again and another € 4 will be taken from your balance.

You can get your money back with RET's customer support, of course, but I did find this particular situation very confusing.
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 22nd, 2014, 11:53 PM   #1604
Silly_Walks
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,980
Likes (Received): 836

You wait for someone else to exit and walk behind them, causing an alarm to go off. An alarm that nobody reacts to.

Or you simply kick/push with 80 kg of force, and the door opens automatically as a safety mechanism.
Silly_Walks no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 22nd, 2014, 11:55 PM   #1605
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599

Or jump. And then run as fast as you can.
Road_UK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 23rd, 2014, 12:54 AM   #1606
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Or jump. And then run as fast as you can.
I guess that depends on where you jump or push. If you do it at Rotterdam Centraal you might encounter some guard trying to catch you, but if you're at a quiet station such as Rotterdam Zuid or Breda Prinsenbeek nobody will care that you force yourself through or jump over a gate.
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2014, 08:47 AM   #1607
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
Above Blaak railway station is the subway station. One side of the platform was too small for gates, so they placed validators instead. That's the one on the platform besides the NS validator. However, if you are going in the opposite direction you will encounter gates. If you have touched in at the RET validator on the platform and then touch your card on the reader at the gates, the machine checks you in again and another € 4 will be taken from your balance.

You can get your money back with RET's customer support, of course, but I did find this particular situation very confusing.
That is because Blaak has been designed to make the walking paths between the different modes as short as possible. There are stairs directly from the metro platforms to the train platforms.
In Amsterdam there are even stations with shared platforms with trains on one side and metro at the other. How have they gone about gating these?

All in all it does again show how this whole mess appears more an more like an inconvenient solution to problem of which far better solutions exist.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2014, 02:59 PM   #1608
MrAronymous
Registered User
 
MrAronymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,011
Likes (Received): 6103

For cross-platform connections there's validator poles.

At Amsterdam Amstel:



And I believe the gates in the station underpass have signs above it making clear for what mode you're checking in/out.

In Zutphen:


Last edited by MrAronymous; July 24th, 2014 at 03:11 PM.
MrAronymous no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2014, 08:15 PM   #1609
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrAronymous View Post
For cross-platform connections there's validator poles. At Amsterdam Amstel: And I believe the gates in the station underpass have signs above it making clear for what mode you're checking in/out. In Zutphen:
My goodness. And I thought that this was intended to make life easier. This is even a lot worse then I feared.
What does the average passenger do for whom a train us just a train, and whom doesn't give a thought to which company runs a service?
Even in the UK it's not such a mess...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2014, 08:17 PM   #1610
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

Is this whole mess really costing less than some staff checking tickets?
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2014, 08:22 PM   #1611
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599

I bet this whole mess is sold by the same guy as the one depicted in your signature on the Simpsons
__________________

Wilhem275 liked this post
Road_UK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2014, 08:29 PM   #1612
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21253

Without OV-Chipkaart, we wouldn't have had an interesting proposal: distance-based fares for urban transportation. NS also introduced a second "peak fare" period between 16.30 and 19.00, which didn't exist before, thanks to OV-Chipkaart.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2014, 08:32 PM   #1613
MrAronymous
Registered User
 
MrAronymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,011
Likes (Received): 6103

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
What does the average passenger do for whom a train us just a train, and whom doesn't give a thought to which company runs a service?
Error. Does not compute.
The average passenger knows very well which company it's using. It's a small minority that either is unfamiliar with the area or is just clueless. The situation with operators other than NS (Dutch Railways) is pretty much only present on local lines (Unlike in the UK I believe), which were not profitable or important enough for NS to operate there. The important big city routes are usually served by NS. So it's not as much of a big deal you're making it out to be. It's pretty much the same as a bus transfer.
MrAronymous no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2014, 08:33 PM   #1614
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Without OV-Chipkaart, we wouldn't have had an interesting proposal: distance-based fares for urban transportation. NS also introduced a second "peak fare" period between 16.30 and 19.00, which didn't exist before, thanks to OV-Chipkaart.

Maybe the idea was good, the setup is rubbish. You can tell from the minute you walk into a Dutch railway station or metro station that it is amateur night. Look at the Underground stations in London, Paris and New York and learn!
Road_UK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2014, 08:39 PM   #1615
MrAronymous
Registered User
 
MrAronymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,011
Likes (Received): 6103

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Maybe the idea was good, the setup is rubbish. You can tell from the minute you walk into a Dutch railway station or metro station that it is amateur night. Look at the Underground stations in London, Paris and New York and learn!
What is your point here? That the OV-chipkaart system is shit? The stations are ugly/not well designed? Cause for the metro I honestly can't think of a whole lot of big differences.
MrAronymous no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2014, 08:41 PM   #1616
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21253

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrAronymous View Post
Error. Does not compute.
The average passenger knows very well which company it's using. It's a small minority that either is unfamiliar with the area or is just clueless. The situation with operators other than NS (Dutch Railways) is pretty much only present on local lines (Unlike in the UK I believe), which were not profitable or important enough for NS to operate there. The important big city routes are usually served by NS. So it's not as much of a big deal you're making it out to be. It's pretty much the same as a bus transfer.
How are they operating the OV-Chipkaart on the shared sector in Amstelveen, that accommodates both heavy rail/subway (check-in only on station totem or gates) and trams (check-in within the vehicles) and on Randstad Rail stations that also have heavy trains (lijn E) and light rail to Zoetermeer?
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2014, 08:51 PM   #1617
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
How are they operating the OV-Chipkaart on the shared sector in Amstelveen, that accommodates both heavy rail/subway (check-in only on station totem or gates) and trams (check-in within the vehicles) and on Randstad Rail stations that also have heavy trains (lijn E) and light rail to Zoetermeer?
In Amsterdam and the Zoetermeer/The Hague area, you'll have to use the validators in the vehicle when riding the tram, and use the validators on the platform when using the subway/metro.
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2014, 08:55 PM   #1618
MrAronymous
Registered User
 
MrAronymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,011
Likes (Received): 6103

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
How are they operating the OV-Chipkaart on the shared sector in Amstelveen, that accommodates both heavy rail/subway (check-in only on station totem or gates) and trams (check-in within the vehicles) and on Randstad Rail stations that also have heavy trains (lijn E) and light rail to Zoetermeer?
Don't know about the Zoetermeer situation. In Amstelveen you just treat the light rail the same as a metro. So you check in beforehand at a totem. Then get in. Then check out at a totem, or a gate if you're going past Zuid. The trams are just the same as all other trams and buses so have validators inside.

So you can still fare evade in Amstelveen, but not past Zuid station, because there there's gates and you would be locked in.
MrAronymous no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2014, 09:09 PM   #1619
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrAronymous View Post
What is your point here? That the OV-chipkaart system is shit? The stations are ugly/not well designed? Cause for the metro I honestly can't think of a whole lot of big differences.
I think the photos posted by AlexNL on this page speaks for itself.
__________________

Wilhem275 liked this post
Road_UK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2014, 10:26 PM   #1620
radamfi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Crawley
Posts: 551
Likes (Received): 58

I presume you need intermediate validators so they can accurately split the revenue between the companies. In most cases, though, there won't be any ambiguity. If you touch in at Assen and touch out at Roodeschool, you must have used Arriva between Groningen and Roodeschool.

If you travel from Rotterdam Blaak to Schiedam Centraal, you could have used NS or RET or a mixture of the two. The fare is different depending on whether you use NS or RET so I guess it is needed there. But in London there are similar routes where you could have used the Underground or National Rail, yet you don't have separate readers. Therefore in London, on these routes, they don't know which company you used, and therefore the fare is the same, and they have to split the revenue using surveys.

In London they do have interchange validators as well, coloured pink instead of the usual yellow. Touching on the pink readers is not compulsory, but if you don't touch the pink reader, the system assumes a default route which might be more expensive than the route you actually took.
__________________

Wilhem275 liked this post
radamfi no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium