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Old July 24th, 2014, 10:42 PM   #1621
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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Is this whole mess really costing less than some staff checking tickets?
Oh, they won't even be able to reduce on train inspections...
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Old July 24th, 2014, 10:47 PM   #1622
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Error. Does not compute. The average passenger knows very well which company it's using. It's a small minority that either is unfamiliar with the area or is just clueless. The situation with operators other than NS (Dutch Railways) is pretty much only present on local lines (Unlike in the UK I believe), which were not profitable or important enough for NS to operate there. The important big city routes are usually served by NS. So it's not as much of a big deal you're making it out to be. It's pretty much the same as a bus transfer.
No it isn't the same.
With buses you check in or out on the vehicle. And you are always supposed to do this, regardless of whether you're transferring to a bus from the same, or from a different company.
With trains it is not obvious. I'm traveling Rotterdam - Harlingen in a few weeks time, and just learned that not only will I have to buy a disposable chipcard, I also will have to pay attention at every transfer wether I'm changing companies or not... I don't think this exists anywhere in Europe.
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Old July 24th, 2014, 11:22 PM   #1623
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I presume you need intermediate validators so they can accurately split the revenue between the companies. In most cases, though, there won't be any ambiguity. If you touch in at Assen and touch out at Roodeschool, you must have used Arriva between Groningen and Roodeschool.

If you travel from Rotterdam Blaak to Schiedam Centraal, you could have used NS or RET or a mixture of the two. The fare is different depending on whether you use NS or RET so I guess it is needed there. But in London there are similar routes where you could have used the Underground or National Rail, yet you don't have separate readers. Therefore in London, on these routes, they don't know which company you used, and therefore the fare is the same, and they have to split the revenue using surveys.

In London they do have interchange validators as well, coloured pink instead of the usual yellow. Touching on the pink readers is not compulsory, but if you don't touch the pink reader, the system assumes a default route which might be more expensive than the route you actually took.
A secondary issue is that there are some subscriptions and several passes valid on GVB network, but not on NS network, and GVB and NS share several stations and some platforms. For instance, you might have a 72h pass for GVB. You can travel by subway between Amsterdam Zuid and Bijlmer Arena if you want, but you can't take a NS train. Likewise, if you have a "free weekend travel" pass from NS, you can travel between Rotterdam Schiedam and Rotterdam Blaak using NS trains, but not RET subway.
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Old July 24th, 2014, 11:30 PM   #1624
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If you touch in at Assen and touch out at Roodeschool, you must have used Arriva between Groningen and Roodeschool.

The system architecture does require you to touch out at an NS validator and touch in at an Arriva validator when you change trains in Groningen. This is a result of the OV-chipkaart's system architecture: as each operator owns and operates its own equipment, starting a journey (touching in) with one operator and ending it with another (touch out) is not possible.

If someone starts the journey with NS but finished it with Arriva, they can't simply tell TLS (the clearance house behind the OV-Chipkaart) how much money they want as the operators will have to communicate with each other to figure out which uncompleted journeys should be matched together to form a completed journey (and thus to calculate the route taken).

Furthermore, as it's possible to take multiple routes and use different operators to get from A to B* this makes the calculations very hard. So while I agree that it would be easier if you would have to touch in and out only once, it's not as easily realized with the complex fare structure that the Netherlands has nowadays...

* To get from Hengelo to Apeldoorn you can take the direct NS intercity train, but it's also possible to travel to Zutphen with Syntus and to travel to Apeldoorn with Arriva
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Old July 24th, 2014, 11:54 PM   #1625
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To get from Hengelo to Apeldoorn you can take the direct NS intercity train, but it's also possible to travel to Zutphen with Syntus and to travel to Apeldoorn with Arriva
I tried to get the fare for this route on the NS site but it doesn't know fares where you use a 'via station'. 9292.nl does give a fare of €12.07, compared with the direct NS fare of €11.80.
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Old July 25th, 2014, 11:34 AM   #1626
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Originally Posted by radamfi View Post
I presume you need intermediate validators so they can accurately split the revenue between the companies. In most cases, though, there won't be any ambiguity. If you touch in at Assen and touch out at Roodeschool, you must have used Arriva between Groningen and Roodeschool.
There are quite a few countries in Europe where they manage to split revenue between operators without imposing extra complexity on the passengers...
For many passengers, especially people who don't take the train a lot it is not immediately obvious when you change operators.
With buses it's not a problem, because there the principle is that you always check out when you leave a vehicle, regardless of whether you change operators.
With trains it can be a problem, because the operator isn't necessarily obvious.
If I travel from Heerlen to Eijsden I change from "Veolia" to "NMBS" according to the trip planner on www.ns.nl. Is there an NMBS CICO pole in Maastricht?
And the information in the trip planner is incorrect, as the operator of that line is NS, not NMBS, even though the train sets and personel are provided by NMBS. So strictly It's check out Veolia, check in NS one would need to do here...
I'm due to travel to the Netherlands in August. I'll have ample opportunity to try out different scenarios, as I'll arrive on an international ticket bought at the station in Belgium, will need to buy a ticket Rotterdam - Harlingen and Harlingen - Amsterdam, and then will leave Amsterdam with an e-ticket sold to me by DB (with two persons on one piece of paper...)
I first intended to just check in at Rotterdam and out in Harlingen on my trip there (as I though that this is what you did on trains). I think I will now just treat the disposable chipcard as if it was a paper ticket.

Quote:
If you travel from Rotterdam Blaak to Schiedam Centraal, you could have used NS or RET or a mixture of the two. The fare is different depending on whether you use NS or RET so I guess it is needed there.
No what is needed here is that fares are integrated. That Blaak - Schiedam costs different whether one takes the metro or the train is silly really.

Quote:
But in London there are similar routes where you could have used the Underground or National Rail, yet you don't have separate readers. Therefore in London, on these routes, they don't know which company you used, and therefore the fare is the same, and they have to split the revenue using surveys.
In London the Oyster card was introduced as a means to fully integrate the whole system tariff-whise. In the Netherlands they seem to do the opposite.
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Old July 25th, 2014, 11:56 AM   #1627
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How is it done on randstadrail? AFAIK the RET requires you to check in at the station entrance, but HTM wants you the check in on the vehicle. How does it work on the shared sections?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
* To get from Hengelo to Apeldoorn you can take the direct NS intercity train, but it's also possible to travel to Zutphen with Syntus and to travel to Apeldoorn with Arriva
They could just solve that by limiting a ticket to a route. When you buy Hengelo to Apeldoorn from a ticket vending machine it could give you two options, and you choose which route you take. Based on that the revenue for the ticket is split.
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Old July 25th, 2014, 12:18 PM   #1628
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Fit all trains with a passenger boarding/alighting system and simply count how much distance passenger have travelled on your network. Split the revenues accordingly.
Calculate the fare over the most likely route taken and automatically charge multiple base fees if the itenerary included several operators.
In fact a lot of train are already fitted with such a counting system.
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Old July 25th, 2014, 06:05 PM   #1629
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Fit all trains with a passenger boarding/alighting system and simply count how much distance passenger have travelled on your network. Split the revenues accordingly. Calculate the fare over the most likely route taken and automatically charge multiple base fees if the itenerary included several operators. In fact a lot of train are already fitted with such a counting system.
You don't need to fit all vehicles. Getting a representative sample is sufficient.

The SBB is working on a "Be in,be out" system. Basically the system would recognize your present on board a vehicle, and would even know if you'd travelled first or second class. As a passenger you wouldn't have to do anything beyond having your card on you. Now that is user friendly...
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Old July 25th, 2014, 08:17 PM   #1630
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How is it done on randstadrail? AFAIK the RET requires you to check in at the station entrance, but HTM wants you the check in on the vehicle. How does it work on the shared sections?
On the shared part of the The Hague - Rotterdam route, RET has a separate section on each platform. RET's validators are placed at the platform entrances.

These separate sections are a result of the different rolling stock: HTM uses low floor tram vehicles (matching the platforms in the city), RET uses high floor subway vehicles.
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Old July 25th, 2014, 09:05 PM   #1631
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Speaking of Randstad Rail... when will the Hoek van Holland-Schiedam line be transferred to RET?

What about the conversion of the Kempen-Zwolle railway on a tram route?
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Old July 25th, 2014, 10:22 PM   #1632
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On the shared part of the The Hague - Rotterdam route, RET has a separate section on each platform. RET's validators are placed at the platform entrances. These separate sections are a result of the different rolling stock: HTM uses low floor tram vehicles (matching the platforms in the city), RET uses high floor subway vehicles.
So what do you do if you've validated on the RET section and the first vehicle to come along is a HTML tram?
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Old July 25th, 2014, 10:30 PM   #1633
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Speaking of Randstad Rail... when will the Hoek van Holland-Schiedam line be transferred to RET?

Have they drawn up a plan to do this?
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Old July 25th, 2014, 10:46 PM   #1634
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Speaking of Randstad Rail... when will the Hoek van Holland-Schiedam line be transferred to RET?
I'm guessing 2017.
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Old July 25th, 2014, 10:47 PM   #1635
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They could just solve that by limiting a ticket to a route. When you buy Hengelo to Apeldoorn from a ticket vending machine it could give you two options, and you choose which route you take. Based on that the revenue for the ticket is split.
If you buy the eenmalige chipkaart, you can indeed choose a cheaper route from the machine. There is a video showing the machine giving you a set of options for travelling on different routes and operators between Amersfoort and Hengelo:

http://www.ns.nl/kaartautomaatdemo/R...an_worden.html
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Old July 25th, 2014, 10:54 PM   #1636
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When the Hoek van Holland line is transferred to RET, would that be the end of through rail/sea tickets between NL and London?

The Hoek van Holland to Harwich ferry sells Dutch train tickets on the boat, even including the €6 bike ticket. Are they still allowed to sell paper tickets or are they able to sell the eenmalige chipkaart? It was the cheapest ticket office to buy Dutch train tickets as they didn't charge a 0.50 euro surcharge, and allowed you to pay in Visa/Mastercard at no extra cost!
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Old July 26th, 2014, 03:59 AM   #1637
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So what do you do if you've validated on the RET section and the first vehicle to come along is a HTML tram?
Then you walk towards the HTM section of the platform, and as you do so you walk past the RET validators. Don't forget to touch out there, otherwise you'll lose € 4,-. Once you're in the HTM vehicle, touch in using their validators.

You can somewhat see the situation in the following picture:


This is an HTM vehicle standing at the HTM section of the platform. HTM vehicles always stop on this side, the platform is at the same height as the vehicle. There are no validators on this platform.

RET vehicles stop to the right of the picture, where the platform is higher. RET's validators are placed solely on the platform, there are no validators inside the vehicles.

This is a fine example of the differences between HTM and RET: HTM treats RandstadRail as a tram line which has low platforms and extends into the city, while RET thinks of it as a subway line. After Rotterdam Centraal, the subway trains continue to Slinge.

All underground stations are sealed off with gates, making validators inside the vehicle redundant. Yet with the tram, the platforms are not sealed so validators inside the vehicle are a necessity. For trams, low floors are desired so PRM's can board easily. Yet, in the subway, higher platforms are used so the vehicles need to align with that.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 01:27 PM   #1638
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Travelled from Utrecht to Arnhem yesterday. The VIRMs HVAC system had a major problem, as it was a sauna in the entire set. If it would have been slightly more crowded I bet people would have fainted. This set should have never been in service.
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Old July 30th, 2014, 11:44 PM   #1639
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I posted recently complaining that my Maestro card from the UK Post Office did not work in the NS machines. I got a Quidity prepaid card, which has expensive fees, but I was curious to see if that would work.

http://www.quiditycard.com/

And it did work! And it also works in Albert Heijn, Zeeman and the yellow OV-Chipkaart machines in Albert Heijn.

I also noticed Rodenrijs and Meijersplein metro stations accept credit cards at no extra cost. If that's the same at all RET machines it would appear that Rotterdam is the place for foreigners to top-up their OV-Chipkaarten. It also allows you to top-up with just €1, unlike NS machines that have a minimum top-up of €4.
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Old July 30th, 2014, 11:49 PM   #1640
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I also noticed Rodenrijs and Meijersplein metro stations accept credit cards at no extra cost. If that's the same at all RET machines it would appear that Rotterdam is the place for foreigners to top-up their OV-Chipkaarten. It also allows you to top-up with just €1, unlike NS machines that have a minimum top-up of €4.
GVB and RET accept CCs.
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