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Old August 4th, 2014, 12:09 AM   #1701
AlexNL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3737 View Post
Benelux- indeed.

The reason why it is almost 40 minutes slower is due to the fact that 1 extra stop is added and the locomotive needs to change side at Breda which takes a lot of time and therefore make it slower.
That is one part, but there are also timetabling issues in the Netherlands that made it very difficult to squeeze in the Beneluxtrein. The paths between Amsterdam and The Hague have be assigned to trains between The Hague and Groningen/Leeuwarden (Hanzelijn opening) and south of Dordrecht a 2nd intercity runs to Vlissingen alongside local trains, freight and time required for bridge openings.

What I've heard is that in the 2015 timetable, the Beneluxtrein will have a 8 minute stopover in The Hague because of scheduling conflicts. As the new timetable is not publicly known yet, this can't be confirmed at the moment.

Quote:
I still hope the NS takes the option in the IC200 tender to buy new Benelux rollingstock. At least the speed can go to 200 km/u instead of 160 km/u and the switch at Breda can go faster which will reduce some of the time.
I hope they will do so indeed. The IC Next Generation tender (which has started a few weeks ago) specifically asks for an option to equip the trains for use in Belgium, so maybe we will see them running there after 2025?

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Originally Posted by radamfi View Post
Presumably it will be better for anyone travelling between Belgium and Rotterdam, Schiphol or Amsterdam to change at Breda and get the Intercity Direct. Hopefully connections will be good. What frequency will Thalys be by that point?
In the end picture, Thalys will run 14 times a day and Eurostar 2 times a day.
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Old August 4th, 2014, 12:18 AM   #1702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3737 View Post
the locomotive needs to change side at Breda which takes a lot of time and therefore make it slower.
...
and the switch at Breda can go faster which will reduce some of the time.
Please, tell me NS will be NOT using the push-pull trainsets with the new 186s:

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Originally Posted by 3737 View Post
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Old August 4th, 2014, 01:19 AM   #1703
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Will these trains call at Den Haag Centraal?

I really don't see a point of having this train travelling between Den Haag and Schiphol and Amsterdam. It would be faster to organize a connection with Intercity Direct in Rotterdam (or even in Breda for that matter) for passengers heading to Schiphol and Amsterdam.

Actually a connection in Breda could be a good alternative, the station is beign renovated and new IC trains from Amsterdam to Eindhoven via HSL will be put in service (I forgot the exact date).

So this Benelux train could start at Den Haag. Yet, 14 Thalys services per day is almost as many as the 16 Benelux trains per day before the Fyra reorganization. And they are very fast and modern.

The advantage of this new Benelux train is that it will call at Zaventem.
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Old August 4th, 2014, 01:52 AM   #1704
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None of the trains will call at Den Haag Centraal.

All Thalys and Eurostar trains will use the high speed line between Schiphol and Rotterdam, completely bypassing The Hague. The Beneluxtrein will go via The Hague and will call at Den Haag HS.
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Old August 4th, 2014, 08:28 AM   #1705
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Originally Posted by MrAronymous View Post
Why would it go through Breda?
The question everybody's been asking since the HSL Zuid opened is "why is there still no train Antwerpen - Breda". An hourly service between these cities now that the line is there would appear to be a complete no-brainer.
Making the Benelux stop there will finally make this a reality. Hopefully the uptake is good, and in the future we might see a direct Antwerpen - Breda - Eindhoven train.
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Old August 4th, 2014, 08:30 AM   #1706
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Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
In the end picture, Thalys will run 14 times a day and Eurostar 2 times a day.
I doubt Eurostar will ever run to Amsterdam. Not as long as the security theatre is still required.
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Old August 4th, 2014, 08:40 AM   #1707
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Originally Posted by 3737 View Post
The reason why it is almost 40 minutes slower is due to the fact that 1 extra stop is added and the locomotive needs to change side at Breda which takes a lot of time and therefore make it slower.
The route should be faster, as the trains can maintain a higher average speed. And changing the engine at Breda shouldn't take more than 5 minutes.

But I think that it's more a matter of providing two services at once:
- Breda - Antwerpen (finally!)
- An alternative for Amsterdam - Brussel for people with an allergy for reserved seats.

- I don't expect this train will see a lot of passengers travelling all the way from Amsterdam to Brussel. Those people will take Thalys.
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Old August 4th, 2014, 08:51 AM   #1708
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Also covering Den Haag - Brussel.

I lost myself: as of today, is NS still operating the Intercity Direct Amsterdam - Breda (via HSL) and IC Den Haag HS - Brussel, as planned for 2014?

In the timetable I can't find Den Haag - Brussel direct services...
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Old August 4th, 2014, 09:08 AM   #1709
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Those services haven't been cut. But because of track works south of Rotterdam that should be completed on Wednesday they don't operate right now.
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Old August 4th, 2014, 09:47 AM   #1710
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The route should be faster, as the trains can maintain a higher average speed. And changing the engine at Breda shouldn't take more than 5 minutes.

But I think that it's more a matter of providing two services at once:
- Breda - Antwerpen (finally!)
- An alternative for Amsterdam - Brussel for people with an allergy for reserved seats.

- I don't expect this train will see a lot of passengers travelling all the way from Amsterdam to Brussel. Those people will take Thalys.
I heard - don't remember where - that NS plans to take the old Benelux
BDx cars out of storage and fit them with driving posts that can be used with
TRAXX locos. If this is done, no engine change at Breda will be necessary.

Regarding the choice between classical train and Thalys, price should also
be a serious differenciator. Currently, the price for a trip Amsterdam-Brussels
on the classical train is 25€, whatever train is used. I'm not sure you can get
the same price on a Thalys train, even with weeks of advance purchase...
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Old August 4th, 2014, 11:35 AM   #1711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
I doubt Eurostar will ever run to Amsterdam. Not as long as the security theatre is still required.
Is DB not supposed to run a service from London to Frankfurt with carriages branching off to Amsterdam?
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Old August 4th, 2014, 12:13 PM   #1712
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The question everybody's been asking since the HSL Zuid opened is "why is there still no train Antwerpen - Breda". An hourly service between these cities now that the line is there would appear to be a complete no-brainer.
Making the Benelux stop there will finally make this a reality. Hopefully the uptake is good, and in the future we might see a direct Antwerpen - Breda - Eindhoven train.
The problem is that the rail line between Tilburg and Breda is extremely busy. During daytime operations, it has 106 scheduled passenger trains and a lot of freight traffic. They also plan introducing 2x/hour Amsterdam-Eindhoven trains via HSL (actually extending the trains Amsterdam-Breda to Eindhoven).

------

Now a secondary question: I had seen some planning maps where they were considering running IC trains Den Haag-Venlo via HSL between Rotterdam and Berda. That would help relieve congestion on the old line to Dordrecht that sees a lot of freight traffic. Is there a date for this to come?
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Old August 4th, 2014, 12:40 PM   #1713
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I've asked the same question on a dutch forum, the timetable for '16 is still unknown, but that's the date that usually goes around. But '17 is just as equally possible! It kind of depends on how the TRAXX+ICRm coaches certification and trials will go!

The IC-Direct Amsterdam Eindhoven you are talking about is infact the IC Den Haag-Venlo which will change into a IC Den Haag-HSL-Eindhoven . How this will effect trains on Rotterdam-Dordrecht-Breda (via conventional lines) is still being studied.
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Old August 4th, 2014, 02:38 PM   #1714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Is DB not supposed to run a service from London to Frankfurt with carriages branching off to Amsterdam?
It is still announced on their web site :

http://www.bahn.com/i/view/GBR/en/ab...n-london.shtml

But don't hold your breath :

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/p...ubt-again.html
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ns-on-ice.html
http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...don-rail-route
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Old August 4th, 2014, 03:38 PM   #1715
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Is DB not supposed to run a service from London to Frankfurt with carriages branching off to Amsterdam?
And wasn't this supposed to run for the London Olympics?

I don't see this happen if DB can't convince the powers that be to get rid of the security theater.
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Old August 4th, 2014, 03:41 PM   #1716
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Regarding the choice between classical train and Thalys, price should also
be a serious differenciator. Currently, the price for a trip Amsterdam-Brussels
on the classical train is 25€, whatever train is used. I'm not sure you can get
the same price on a Thalys train, even with weeks of advance purchase...
The other factor is timetabling. When I was still living in the Netherlands I could travel back to my hometown in Belgium in just above two hours. Nowadays this takes longer, despite the opening of the HSL. All because NMBS sucks at scheduling.
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Old August 4th, 2014, 04:10 PM   #1717
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And wasn't this supposed to run for the London Olympics?

I don't see this happen if DB can't convince the powers that be to get rid of the security theater.
I was in contact with the DB executive for the "Italian operations", she told me the original plan was to enter aggressively many new markets in Europe, but after all the difficulties found with just the Brenner EuroCities they had to widely downsize their plans...
They simply believed it would have been a lot easier to expand.

This is why many claims of new services made just a few years ago didn't have practical consequences.
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Old August 4th, 2014, 04:29 PM   #1718
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The other factor is timetabling. When I was still living in the Netherlands I could travel back to my hometown in Belgium in just above two hours. Nowadays this takes longer, despite the opening of the HSL. All because NMBS sucks at scheduling.
Well, AlexNL said :

-----X----------

That is one part, but there are also timetabling issues in the Netherlands that made it very difficult to squeeze in the Beneluxtrein. The paths between Amsterdam and The Hague have be assigned to trains between The Hague and Groningen/Leeuwarden (Hanzelijn opening) and south of Dordrecht a 2nd intercity runs to Vlissingen alongside local trains, freight and time required for bridge openings.

What I've heard is that in the 2015 timetable, the Beneluxtrein will have a 8 minute stopover in The Hague because of scheduling conflicts. As the new timetable is not publicly known yet, this can't be confirmed at the moment.

-----X---------

I'm sure all of that is just because SNCB sucks at scheduling .

On the other hand, can't we suspect that the NewBenelux schedules have
been made deliberately slow just to ensure Thalys gets enough patronnage on
this route, despite the price difference ?
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Old August 4th, 2014, 10:38 PM   #1719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
I doubt Eurostar will ever run to Amsterdam. Not as long as the security theatre is still required.
Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
I don't see this happen if DB can't convince the powers that be to get rid of the security theater.
As mentioned before, it's unlikely that DB will ever run its ICE services to London due to the difficulties encountered with the BR 407 and the introduction of new services.

Regarding the security theatre: the solution for that is that Londonbound Eurostar passengers are required to disembark at Brussels and go through security there (including their luggage), then re-embark the train to continue their journey to London.

The added journey time of this whole cherade is about 45 minutes, somewhat similar to what Eurostar has done for trains to Aix-en-Provence. Amsterdam-bound passengers won't have to disembark at Brussels though, so the journey will be quicker in that direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Well, AlexNL said :
On the other hand, can't we suspect that the NewBenelux schedules have
been made deliberately slow just to ensure Thalys gets enough patronnage on
this route, despite the price difference ?
Maybe, but I'm not sure if ProRail and Infrabel would play along. It's not in their best interest to deliberately slow a train down, as this would mean longer occupation of sections of tracks of platforms, thus leading to reduced capacity.
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Old August 5th, 2014, 03:10 PM   #1720
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
Regarding the security theatre: the solution for that is that Londonbound Eurostar passengers are required to disembark at Brussels and go through security there (including their luggage), then re-embark the train to continue their journey to London.
I don't see how they could possibly organize that in Brussels, given that
the Eurostar terminal only has two tracks. Other tracks in the station are
not fenced. And the two Eurostar tracks are stub-ended, they can only
be accessed from the south.

Most probably this would be organized at Lille Europe - although this station
has capacity problems too. But at least, it would allow to serve Lille without
all the hassle that exists today.
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