daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old June 8th, 2009, 03:15 PM   #161
ReisThijs
Registered User
 
ReisThijs's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Utrecht
Posts: 967
Likes (Received): 95

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buncles View Post
Is the rail line high speed, or just regular rail?
Just "regulair" rail. Though speeds of 160km/u or 200km/u should be possible: that's not very regular in the Netherlands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qaabus View Post
IJsselspoorbrug Zwolle
A new, higher, bridge will replace the current one from 1864, removing one of the main obstacles for shipping on the IJssel:

source
It's not that old actually: the original bridge was replaced by this one in the 1930's.
ReisThijs no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old June 11th, 2009, 06:54 AM   #162
hoosier
Registered User
 
hoosier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 2,451
Likes (Received): 63

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The network is pretty good, and frequencies are high, but the network is often loaded to capacity due to aged safety systems, and problems at important stations can have effect throughout a lot of the network for most of the day. They should've 4-tracked more railway lines, but chose presitiguous megaprojects instead (Betuweroute, HSL-South).
Is HSL-South the same as HSL-Zuid? Sorry I don't know any Dutch.
__________________
R.I.P. Moke- my best bud
hoosier no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 11th, 2009, 07:12 AM   #163
Momo1435
-----アンジュルム-----
 
Momo1435's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: アルフェナンデンライン
Posts: 35,260
Likes (Received): 63112

Yes, Zuid is Dutch for South.
__________________
Support your Idols
キタ ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━ ฅ(๑⊙д⊙๑)ฅ!! ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━!!!
Japan Projects & Construction
Momo1435 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 11th, 2009, 10:58 AM   #164
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,466
Likes (Received): 6165

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoosier View Post
Sorry I don't know any Dutch.
Few people do, don't sweat it.
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2009, 02:58 AM   #165
andrelot
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 861
Likes (Received): 7

A couple of thoughts on Dutch railway system

I'm living in Tilburg since June, and here are some of my thoughts on major issues of the system, with questions I have about them:

(1) Sometimes I keep thinking whether Netherlands have a rail system or a national metro system. You cannot find, easily, information about arriving trains or arriving times of your train unless you ask an NS employee or check the Internet. There are no such thing like "train service numbers" to make identification easier. Is there any plan to improve the station information system?

(2) 1st class offer little more comfort than 2nd class, but 2nd class costs only 60% of 1st class prices. Newer trains have 6-seat compartments on 1st class, and individual electric socks. Only real benefit seems to be guaranteed seat in peak-times. Anyway, I really don't like newer trains where most seats in 2nd classe are placed in pairs facing each other. I prefer "bus"-like seat where I face the back of other sit, not a stranger face. Am I the only one that dislikes these new double-decker trains with seats facing each other in opposite pairs?

(3) They are putting gates or checkpoints for the OV-Chipkaart in every station. It seems a very good idea do replace honor system with printes tickets by RFID cards. Any estimate date to start allowing use of the Transportation Card to pay for NS fares?

(4) Some trains that split during the journey (IC to Leewarden/Groningen or IC to Maastrich/Heerlem) are not well identified from inside. Older double decker trains had an electronic display in each floor/car, newer ones don't. Are there any plans to include an on-board electronic train announcement system? (Sometimes is really hard to understand what the conductor is saying).

(5) Are there any plans to create "super direct" routes on longer routes that don't stop as much as the Intercity? I've travelled Tilburg-Groningen route a dozen times, and there's no option that takes less than 1 connection (that's fine) and at least 10 stops (that's not fine) using only IC services for a route that has no more than 280 km.

(6) Are there any plans to electrify the Nijmegen-Venlo-Roermond route? What about Syntus routes in easter Netherlands? I think is so outdted to have those lines still running on diesel...
andrelot no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2009, 12:01 PM   #166
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,466
Likes (Received): 6165

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrelot View Post
A couple of thoughts on Dutch railway system

I'm living in Tilburg since June, and here are some of my thoughts on major issues of the system, with questions I have about them:

(1) Sometimes I keep thinking whether Netherlands have a rail system or a national metro system. You cannot find, easily, information about arriving trains or arriving times of your train unless you ask an NS employee or check the Internet. There are no such thing like "train service numbers" to make identification easier. Is there any plan to improve the station information system?
Arrival times are a problem, you're right. When I pick someone up, I have to ask them what time they got on the train so I can figure out what time it should arrive according to ns.nl

The train services used to carry their own numbers a few years ago, as I recall, but they fell into disuse and later ceased to exist altogether. As far as I know, there are no plans to reinstate them or introduce a similar system.

It's funny you should mention national metro system, because that is exactly what NS has in mind when it considers its future. In the next few years, trains in the Randstad will run every 10 or sometimes even 5 minutes. You'll be seeing more of that throughout the entire country as the infrastructure and rolling stock are adapted accordingly.

Quote:
(2) 1st class offer little more comfort than 2nd class, but 2nd class costs only 60% of 1st class prices. Newer trains have 6-seat compartments on 1st class, and individual electric socks. Only real benefit seems to be guaranteed seat in peak-times. Anyway, I really don't like newer trains where most seats in 2nd classe are placed in pairs facing each other. I prefer "bus"-like seat where I face the back of other sit, not a stranger face. Am I the only one that dislikes these new double-decker trains with seats facing each other in opposite pairs?
You spotted all the differences between 1st and 2nd class. That's it, there isn't more to it.

As for seating arrangements - NS has struggled to come up with a consistent policy. A few years ago they argued that double deckers should have face-to-face arrangements below and individual rows upstairs. When they ordered newer trains, the policy was changed. I have no idea what the current policy is. It's a major flaw in the organizational structures of the company.

Quote:
(3) They are putting gates or checkpoints for the OV-Chipkaart in every station. It seems a very good idea do replace honor system with printes tickets by RFID cards. Any estimate date to start allowing use of the Transportation Card to pay for NS fares?
People traveling on subscriptions can already use it (since december 1st I believe). It will be introduced in stages for every traveler through 2010 if all goes to plan.

Quote:
(4) Some trains that split during the journey (IC to Leewarden/Groningen or IC to Maastrich/Heerlem) are not well identified from inside. Older double decker trains had an electronic display in each floor/car, newer ones don't. Are there any plans to include an on-board electronic train announcement system? (Sometimes is really hard to understand what the conductor is saying).
Everyone I know is annoyed by the disappearance of the inside displays in the new double deckers. It's a strange decision. There are, sadly, no plans to bring it back.
Other types of trains such as the Sprinter do have detailed displays (showing every station with its own arrival time) and an electronic announcer. I don't know if the voice-over is gonna be introduced on other trains as well.

Quote:
(5) Are there any plans to create "super direct" routes on longer routes that don't stop as much as the Intercity? I've travelled Tilburg-Groningen route a dozen times, and there's no option that takes less than 1 connection (that's fine) and at least 10 stops (that's not fine) using only IC services for a route that has no more than 280 km.
No. Frequent stops is the new black. Metro system etc.

Quote:
(6) Are there any plans to electrify the Nijmegen-Venlo-Roermond route? What about Syntus routes in easter Netherlands? I think is so outdted to have those lines still running on diesel...
I don't know, you'd have to contact Prorail for that.
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2009, 12:33 AM   #167
DarkLoki
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Frisia Magna
Posts: 405
Likes (Received): 41

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrelot View Post
A couple of thoughts on Dutch railway system
(1) Sometimes I keep thinking whether Netherlands have a rail system or a national metro system. You cannot find, easily, information about arriving trains or arriving times of your train unless you ask an NS employee or check the Internet. There are no such thing like "train service numbers" to make identification easier. Is there any plan to improve the station information system?
The train stations I use have a table that shows all the arriving trains. Their origin and arrivaltime. Oh I guess you mean when you are inside the train. In that case there you would indeed have to ask a "conducteur". But new trains such as the ICMm has fittings for a new information system that will give information about the stations and times. When the DDAR is upgraded for intercity use it will also use that system. They will also solve the problem you mentioned in question 4.

Quote:
(2) 1st class offer little more comfort than 2nd class, but 2nd class costs only 60% of 1st class prices. Newer trains have 6-seat compartments on 1st class, and individual electric socks. Only real benefit seems to be guaranteed seat in peak-times. Anyway, I really don't like newer trains where most seats in 2nd classe are placed in pairs facing each other. I prefer "bus"-like seat where I face the back of other sit, not a stranger face. Am I the only one that dislikes these new double-decker trains with seats facing each other in opposite pairs?
I prefer having the seats in a vis ā vis setting, and as far as I know most trains have less of them in recent times. So I do not know if you are the only one who dislikes those trains but I am not one of them
DarkLoki no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2009, 11:20 AM   #168
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,466
Likes (Received): 6165

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLoki View Post
The train stations I use have a table that shows all the arriving trains. Their origin and arrivaltime.
I think I've managed to never ever see those

Quote:
Oh I guess you mean when you are inside the train. In that case there you would indeed have to ask a "conducteur". But new trains such as the ICMm has fittings for a new information system that will give information about the stations and times. When the DDAR is upgraded for intercity use it will also use that system. They will also solve the problem you mentioned in question 4.
So the Sprinter, the ICMm and the DDAR will use that system, that's good, but what about VIRM?

Quote:
I prefer having the seats in a vis ā vis setting, and as far as I know most trains have less of them in recent times. So I do not know if you are the only one who dislikes those trains but I am not one of them
It's a personal thing. But NS could at least strive to implement a single policy. As is stands, nobody knows what's what.
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2009, 12:23 PM   #169
woutero
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 294
Likes (Received): 41


I read this week that NS has plans to create a difference between quiet and social zones in their double decker trains.

Upstairs would be the quiet zone, where the seats are arranged like buses, and people are supposed to be quiet, read or work.

Downstairs would become the social zone, with seats arranged vis-a-vis (four seats), and lounge benches.

So in the future you will have a choice.

Source:
http://www.depers.nl/binnenland/3579...-gezellig.html
woutero no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2009, 01:14 PM   #170
andrelot
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 861
Likes (Received): 7

That would be a good idea, there are "quiet" cars today, but I don't think people care about them.
andrelot no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2009, 12:21 AM   #171
3737
Registered User
 
3737's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Leiden
Posts: 1,406
Likes (Received): 1038

The DDAR trains will be refurbished and will be renamed in Double dekker Zone.
(DDZ for short)
It will be named zone because of the relax deck on the first floor and silence deck on the second floor.
First class first floor now :


Second class second floor now :


Source : wikipedia

The train after refurbishing :
First floor first class with the lounge banks :


Second floor first class :


First floor second class :


First floor first class and second class in the background :


And also the second floor :


Toilet:


Entrance train :


Source : www.puurruimte.nl

The first proto train will be finished at the end of 2010 and is already in progress : http://www.flickr.com/photos/2312808...7622399969052/
If the proto train is finished and succeeded for some tests the whole DDAR fleet will be refurbished in the begining of 2011 and will be finished around 2013.
The project will be done by nedtrain who also did the refurbishing of the ICMm (koploper) trains.

And here is some more info about the project : http://www.nsprocurement.nl/files/DD...ion.080901.ppt
3737 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2009, 12:25 AM   #172
andrelot
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 861
Likes (Received): 7

Cool, thanks for posting. Do you know if are they going to put wireless service in the trains?

I also hope they change those filthy bathrooms whic throws sewage... straight into the tracks.
andrelot no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2009, 02:24 AM   #173
3737
Registered User
 
3737's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Leiden
Posts: 1,406
Likes (Received): 1038

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrelot View Post
Cool, thanks for posting. Do you know if are they going to put wireless service in the trains?

I also hope they change those filthy bathrooms whic throws sewage... straight into the tracks.
I think they will get new bioreactors like het new VIRM trains but i am not shure about it.
Al the trains of the NS fleet will have wireless internet.
NS signed an agreement with T mobile and the first trains will be equiped with it in march 2010
3737 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2009, 07:23 AM   #174
Momo1435
-----アンジュルム-----
 
Momo1435's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: アルフェナンデンライン
Posts: 35,260
Likes (Received): 63112

Only the Intercity trains.
__________________
Support your Idols
キタ ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━ ฅ(๑⊙д⊙๑)ฅ!! ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━!!!
Japan Projects & Construction
Momo1435 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2009, 07:09 PM   #175
andrelot
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 861
Likes (Received): 7

I have another question: I realized Dutch rail network has some key nods out of Randstad (Zwolle and Eindhoven, for instance), yet there are no express services linkin these places with non-stop services to cities in The Randstad. For instance: from Zwolle there area a lot of lines branching north and east, as there are other lines in Eindhoven. So why don't NS set up some direct services like Rotterdam-Zwolle, Amsterdam-Eidnhoven etc. non-stop services, to speed up connections from the outer provinces to the Randstad?

Even within the Randstad, I still cannot understand why don't they have direct Intercity services from Rotterdam to Amsterdam that don't call at Den Haag HS (except for Fyra, which was almost empty 4 times I used it), or Utrecht-Den Haag Centraal services that don't call at Gouda.
andrelot no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2009, 10:03 PM   #176
Momo1435
-----アンジュルム-----
 
Momo1435's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: アルフェナンデンライン
Posts: 35,260
Likes (Received): 63112

Direct trains are not really practical on the Dutch railways, there are just too many cities of reasonable size and the rail network is already too busy and complex to make these kind of trains go faster then the current trains.

And the number of people that actually travel from Amsterdam to Eindhoven or Rotterdam - Zwolle is actually not high enough for 2 non stop trains per hour. Any lower frequency will seriously harm is passenger numbers (see Fyra). On the other hand Rotterdam - Utrecht needs 4 ICs per hour during rush hour to have enough capacity and that won't change with direct trains to the East. And then you need 3, because Zwolle has one, why can't Enschede and Arnhem have two. At Gouda these trains will have to share the tracks with the 4 ICs from Den Haag to Utrecht, at Woerden the 2 IC per hour will also join the tracks. And then you don't even look at the stopping services and the freight trains that also have a regular timetable on this route. Adding any more trains would just mean more delays and make it much more complex then needed.

This is also the reason why all the trains stop at Gouda, back in the 1980s there where 2 ICs per hour from Rotterdam to Utrecht, only stopping at Rdam Alexander. And also 2 ICs per hour from Den Haag to Utrecht with 1 stop per hour in Gouda. These trains used to be coupled in Utrecht to continue together to Zwolle-Groningen/Leeuwarden or Enschede.

In the 1990s a new fast train was added to the route, with an hourly service from Rotterdam to Utrecht that stopped also at Gouda and Woerden and continued to Arnhem. On the other half hour the train would start at Den Haag, in order to have an 1/2 hour frequency between Gouda and Utrecht. This service was even increased to a full 1/2 hour between both Rotterdam and Den Haag and Utrecht with the trains coupled together at Gouda.

But even with this train the Rotterdam - Utrecht route became to busy during rush hours. Especially because these trains where always coupled at some point on the route there could only use half trains between Rotterdam and Utrecht. In order to use the full capacity they have stopped coupling the trains altogether and created 4 IC trains per hour from Rotterdam to Utecht that continue to Leeuwarden (1x), Deventer (2x) or Enschede (1x).

As a result there are now 8 IC trains between Gouda and Utrecht, if they would all be non-stop there wouldn't be room for a direct fast train between those two cities any more. Half of them could easily pass Gouda, but for the timetable planners it would too difficult, especially in Utrecht where 6 of those ICs have to change the driving direction of the train to go to Amersfoort. That takes time and uses more capacity in the station then a regular stop. Gouda is lucky in this way since it has one of the best connection with Utrecht out of all the cities in the Randstad.


Direct services would be good for the people living in the cities in the North East and South, but it's just not possible in the already too busy timetable in the Randstad. Plus long distance commuting isn't something that should be encouraged in a country with a such a high population density as Holland, the infrastructure is already used more then it can handle. People should actually be encouraged to live close to their work, so they don't have to take the train or car to commute.
__________________
Support your Idols
キタ ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━ ฅ(๑⊙д⊙๑)ฅ!! ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━!!!
Japan Projects & Construction
Momo1435 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2009, 10:16 PM   #177
andrelot
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 861
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
People should actually be encouraged to live close to their work, so they don't have to take the train or car to commute.
Thanks Momo1435, you gave me interesting and useful information about the tracks use in the Randstad. It is by no means a calm track like Syntus services near Hegelo.

In regard of the latter, I think it is not common to read that people should stop taking the train to commute. I know the country is fairly dense, and economic activities are quite spread around. For sure, single young professional can choose to live near their workplace, but what about families where the man works in Amsterdam the woman in Rotterdam, and their child studies at a Tech University in Utrecht, for instance?

Just hanging on the subject, I think is quite unreasonable to expect families to be able to confine their lives to just one city these days, if they have higher-profile careers. I mean, it should be easier to relocate if one works as a cashier and the other as a salesperson at a department store; situation is different one is an specialist doctor and the other an electrical engineer.
andrelot no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2009, 11:12 PM   #178
Momo1435
-----アンジュルム-----
 
Momo1435's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: アルフェナンデンライン
Posts: 35,260
Likes (Received): 63112

It's about choices.

But if we really wan't to do something about the capacity problems in our trains or for more people even more importantly, solve the congestion problem on our roads then we cannot just depend only on solutions like more trains or more roads.

For a real solution of those problems we need to take a different look on our mobility together with how we organize and design our cities. Discouraging long distance commuting even if it's by train is one of the things we should not be afraid of to discuss as possible solution. We have to keep all options open if we really want to ease the congestion and to make our public transport a better option for more people to use on a daily basis. Right now everybody has an excuse ready why they shouldn't change their own mobility behaviour, even when they always complain about the traffic jams or standing in the train. And as a result we will end up with a country that's completely built-up country with only high-ways and suburban neighbourhoods, that's not something to look forward to.
__________________
Support your Idols
キタ ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━ ฅ(๑⊙д⊙๑)ฅ!! ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━!!!
Japan Projects & Construction
Momo1435 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2009, 11:31 PM   #179
andrelot
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 861
Likes (Received): 7

How much space do Dutch railways and freeways take up from the whole land territory? 1% maybe?

Usually when you put facts on the ground you find out urbanization and "space eaten" by airports, tracks and highways are far less than common sense would say - at least that what happens in controlled experiments done in US: people think that farmland is running out fast, when it indeed is not -.

Anyway, I don't think increased train mobility is a bad thing for a dense country. Unless you want to isolate further provinces and depopulate them, then turning the Randstad cities into Manhatan-like high-rises skyline, rail and road transportation demands are going at most to stabilize.

I don't think couples would be willing to give up in dual careers, best educational choices for their children etc. for the sake of saving some pristine farmland. These days, is easy to blame the car etc. (especially because anti-car measures usually pamper the affected people with nice streets, or people think that congestion would go down because others will stop driving so he/she will have more room to drive). However, I don't think any politician would advance and agenda like "choose the jobs available in your cities, not the trains that take you from your cities to the jobs you want to".

It's quite totalitarian, indeed, this approach (just reflecting, I'm not thinking you said that).
andrelot no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2009, 11:58 PM   #180
DarkLoki
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Frisia Magna
Posts: 405
Likes (Received): 41

I do not live in the Randstad but I do not see why the family situation you proposed would not be possible. What about the current train system would not allow two of them to commute to their work?
DarkLoki no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium