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Old August 30th, 2014, 01:27 AM   #1921
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Why not? Surely ÖBB is on a budget....
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Old August 30th, 2014, 01:30 AM   #1922
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I sat on a stationary Railjet once. They look nice from the outside and appear to be very comfortable, but why do they need to spoil the view by writing "Railjet" on the windows?
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Old August 30th, 2014, 03:55 AM   #1923
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It looks old fashioned because it is. It's nowhere near the ambitions that NS once had for the high speed line.
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Old August 30th, 2014, 04:40 AM   #1924
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Sadly we'll have to wait till about 2020-'22 for the 200 km/h Next Generation IC's that might look better.
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Old August 30th, 2014, 04:45 AM   #1925
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Why not? Surely ÖBB is on a budget....
Well, a bad one actually

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Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
I know where that is, I see that tower almost* every working day when I approach The Hague! Nice spot you got there, how much do you pay for that?
Well, I basically have the tracks in the backyard of the building... In the end I pay them 477/month, which is more than I wanted to spend, but at least I have it and it's also nice.
You can see all the way to Moerwijk station. A friend has another room, with a view on HS.
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Old August 30th, 2014, 06:00 AM   #1926
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They usually fleece exchange students

At least it is a relatively transparent process, intl. students going to Italy have to deal with even dodgier landlords and crumbling student houses while often sharing bedrooms as well

/off-topic
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Old August 30th, 2014, 02:47 PM   #1927
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I just came back from a trip to the Netherlands, that involved in total three train rides. So I got to experience some of the "OV Chipcard" lunacy.
I encountered no closed gates at stations yet, but I do foresee lots of problems once they will be closed. In Amsterdam for example, we arrived in the morning, then walked to the main hall (through the gates) then looked for the luggage lockers, which entailed walking back through gates, then out again, then back in again to go the the AH, then out again...
My ticket as printed on a A4 (for the both of us, so no "you hit the AH, I'll stow the luggage once the gates are closed), and having to take it out again every couple of minutes would have been a hassle. Gating stations is incompatible with the concept of stations as public places. In Bern, where I live, the shops in the stations have a bout 1/3 of their turnover from people who aren't train passengers. I suspect it would be similar in Amsterdam.

Downright idiotic is the rule that you need to "check in an out" when you transfer trains when they are of different operators.
It's idiotic for several reasons.
For one thing, for decades the Dutch have optimised their transfer points so that transfers are often short, and cross platform. So we arrive in Leeuwarden, 2 minutes late, which means we only have 2 minutes left to transfer to the local to Harlingen.
I know that this train is just on the other side of the platform. So we got out and started walking towards the little "Spurt" parked at the end of it's track. We were travelling on disposable chip cards, and I know that I was supposed to check out at an NS touch point, and check in again at Arriva. However when crossing the platform I couldn't immediately spot the readers, and decided that not missing our connection had priority, so we just boarded. I later noticed that the readers on the platform had been obscured by all the people trying to use them.
Back from Harlingen to Amsterdam I had to help someone buy a ticket to Leeuwarden, as there are two ticket vending machines on the platform, an Arriva one, and a NS one, and it's not clear to the uninitiated which one you need to use if you want to buy just a single ticket on a chipcard. (Answer: Always the NS one apparently)
We "checked in" in Harlingen, again failed to check out and in again in Leeuwarden. Between Zwolle and Lelystad the conductor checked our tickets and did not comment, and in Amsterdam when checking out the reader also mentioned that everything was OK.
So contrary to what is being announced you don't need to check out and in when you change to different train operator, at least when you are travelling on a ticket, not on pay as you go.

I had some discussions with the conductors, and they don't seem to know all the ins and outs as well. There are stations, operated by NS, where no NS trains stop. One example is Eijsden. That station is only served by NMBS trains. But the reader there is an NS one. Later I found out that NMBS, DB and NS should al be considered the same operator (which they in fact are).
There are three (well, two but I suppose few know) operators between Maastricht and Maastricht Randwyck. What is one to do when travelling between those stations?

If NS really goes ahead and closes the gates I predict that this will all go horrible wrong. After Fyra can NS survive another disaster?

My suggestions:
- Get rid of the gates, just put plenty of readers on the platforms.
- Re-introduce paper tickets.
- People travelling on a "travel product" (paper or loaded on a chipcard) should not have to check in or out. This serves no purpose, since checks that someone has the correct "travel product" must still be done on the train anyway.
- For people travelling on credit require that they only check in at the start, and out at the end, and that they touch a reader during transfer only if they use a non-obvious route.
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Old August 30th, 2014, 03:26 PM   #1928
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If you don't require people to check-in on travel products, NS would lose the ability to collect, in principle, data from all domestic journeys. It would have to rely on traffic surveys.

As someone keen on statistical science, whenever you have the computational and operational power to do a census on a time and cost effective manner, don't resort to sampling! Passive collection of data such as detailed travel patterns is always a plus for planning purposes.
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Old August 30th, 2014, 03:55 PM   #1929
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Oh my God
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Old August 30th, 2014, 03:59 PM   #1930
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
on a time and cost effective manner
And that is the problem, at least as percieved by non-regular users.

As we said many times here, the problem is not the system in itself (it is very good actually), but the fact that almost every operation is shifted on the user.

I see your point, but collection of data is a problem of operators, not users.


I want to point out that I am aware that every possible alternative to the existing OV-C system proposed here, by me and others, would in the end cost some money to the taxpayer. My opinion is that a well developed country should give a high value the user-friendliness of its transport system, and not only its (superb) efficiency.

I usually tend to support liberalistic policies, but I came to the conclusion that super-liberism and a good public transport system just don't mix well.
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Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
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Old August 30th, 2014, 04:42 PM   #1931
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Quote:
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In Bern, where I live, the shops in the stations have a bout 1/3 of their turnover from people who aren't train passengers. I suspect it would be similar in Amsterdam.
Amsterdam Central is under construction as we speak. They're constructing 2 gate free passages, because more people are expected in the station to go to the new bus station, shopping mall and ferries that are all on the north side. But if you have a normal OV-chipkaart you would be able to use it to open the gates if you want to go through the gated section anyway.

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Downright idiotic is the rule that you need to "check in and out" when you transfer trains when they are of different operators.
Well it sort of makes sense if you want the operators to get their fair share of the fare.

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However when crossing the platform I couldn't immediately spot the readers, and decided that not missing our connection had priority, so we just boarded. I later noticed that the readers on the platform had been obscured by all the people trying to use them.
Is this a valid argument though? Would it work in Switzerland? "Oh sorry mr. conducter the ticket machines where hidden behind people using them. Don't have a valid ticket now, entschuldigung".

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Back from Harlingen to Amsterdam I had to help someone buy a ticket to Leeuwarden, as there are two ticket vending machines on the platform, an Arriva one, and a NS one, and it's not clear to the uninitiated which one you need to use if you want to buy just a single ticket on a chipcard. (Answer: Always the NS one apparently)
If you want to go to a station on the Arriva network, you buy one with the Arriva machine. If you want to go on the NS network, you buy a ticket from the NS machine. And yes you will have to look on a map first to find out which one goes where, but you would do the same at the S-bahn in Germany or the RER in Paris. It's not big deal really.

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Later I found out that NMBS, DB and NS should al be considered the same operator (which they in fact are).
But.. they shouldn't be and they're not?

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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
There are three (well, two but I suppose few know) operators between Maastricht and Maastricht Randwyck. What is one to do when travelling between those stations?
NMBS(a.k.a. transferring to a train which is going out of the country), buy a ticket. Arriva, check in/out. NS, check in/out.

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If NS really goes ahead and closes the gates I predict that this will all go horrible wrong. After Fyra can NS survive another disaster?
What could go more wrong than now? People technically already have to pay. And if they're not paying now, they will have to in the future.

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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
My suggestions:
- Get rid of the gates, just put plenty of readers on the platforms.
So let's spend even more money on removing them and let the fare evaders back on the network.
Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
- Re-introduce paper tickets.
We still have them. They just have a chip inside them now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
- People travelling on a "travel product" (paper or loaded on a chipcard) should not have to check in or out. This serves no purpose, since checks that someone has the correct "travel product" must still be done on the train anyway.
Validation of the travel product must be done before boarding the train. Seems kinda logical when you think about it. Conductors on board are only there to check if you have a valid(ated) ticket. So the gates will act as automated back-up conductors.

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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
- For people travelling on credit require that they only check in at the start, and out at the end, and that they touch a reader during transfer only if they use a non-obvious route.
Contrary to what people said here, that's already the case. If you want to go from Schiphol to Haarlem, you have to transfer at Amsterdam Sloterdijk. There are gates there, so you have to check out and check in anyway, but if there wouldn't be, you wouldn't have to have checked in or out at all. Within the NS network you only have to check in and out on your first boarding location and your final destination. Unless of course you take a ridiculous detour. (But most people wouldn't anyway, because it would take longer).
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Old August 30th, 2014, 05:16 PM   #1932
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A secondary benefit for gates is that it clearly establishes on the mind of costumers which areas are "transportation facilities" and which areas are just "public open space".

In Berlin, for instance, you can just walk to an U-Bahn platform from a nearby plaza, which leaves the whole thing grayed out. It is important to have a clear distinction from passengers, else they treat platforms, concourses and even trains as extension of sidewalks, which means: eating, drinking, carrying things they shouldn't, being overly loud etc.

The social norms of what is acceptable in segregated facilities contrasted with what is admissible on public sidewalks/plazas/open space help to control the behavior of passengers for the better. There is a psychological effect of separating the transportation experience from the walking-on-street experience, more or less like there is a psychological awareness effect when a car passenger (not driver necessarily) opesn a door of a car, sits and buckle up.
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Old August 30th, 2014, 05:19 PM   #1933
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Quote:
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The social norms of what is acceptable in segregated facilities contrasted with what is admissible on public sidewalks/plazas/open space help to control the behavior of passengers for the better. There is a psychological effect of separating the transportation experience from the walking-on-street experience, more or less like there is a psychological awareness effect when a car passenger (not driver necessarily) opesn a door of a car, sits and buckle up.
Oh my God!!!
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Old August 30th, 2014, 09:12 PM   #1934
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Swiss think that railway being a continuation of public space is actually beneficial for user expirience.

Also, I don't get what's wrong with eating and drinking in trains, as long as it's done in a non-messy way, and food aren't smelly. Many railways use trolleys to dispose snacks and soft drinks for passengers on long-haul trains.
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Old August 30th, 2014, 09:27 PM   #1935
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Swiss think that railway being a continuation of public space is actually beneficial for user expirience.

Also, I don't get what's wrong with eating and drinking in trains, as long as it's done in a non-messy way, and food aren't smelly. Many railways use trolleys to dispose snacks and soft drinks for passengers on long-haul trains.
Yeah but this kind of shit...

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... help to control the behavior of passengers...
...should either make you laugh very hard or scare the hell out of you. Problem is: this dude is serious....
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Old August 31st, 2014, 01:40 AM   #1936
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I've seen gates before on metrostations around the world. Nobody complains about that. I wonder who will get in trouble for not having an OV-chipkaart when passing through a station. I will explain that with a typical dutch station: Leiden Centraal. (http://goo.gl/maps/OCBOz)

People who are not travelling with public transport, will either pass the station by bike or by foot. Those people can use either the Joop Walenkamptunnel or the Rijnsburgerweg to travel from the city center to the west. So they won't need to use the station tunnel. People who are travelling with public transport, already need to have an OV-chipkaart. Most facilities (including Luggage lockers) are available without going through the gates. Only some food services are inside there, to provide food for passengers changing trains.
If you want to buy some food there when travelling by bus, you can enter and exit through the gates without paying anything, as soon as you leave within an hour. So in fact, the only people who want to enter the station but don't have an OV chipkaart are tourists who arrived by car and want to buy some food. They can't enter the station, but outside the station there are plenty of other restaurant and pubs.

I think it is a good idea to separate the functions at stations. At Utrecht Centraal they have a shopping mall attached to the station, which mixes a lot of strolling shoppers with hurrying commuters. If a shopper pays attention to a shop window, he might crash into a commuter running for his train. At Leiden Centraal you see that even the open gates clearly divide up the space, so that there is always a free path for commuters heading for the train. As soon as you leave the station you see that people are walking slower and are less aware of the people around them, so walking fast is almost impossible. I don't know the exact situation in Amsterdam, but I assume it's the same.
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Old August 31st, 2014, 02:06 AM   #1937
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Yeah but this kind of shit...



...should either make you laugh very hard or scare the hell out of you. Problem is: this dude is serious....
I've made it a habit to have a few glasses of wine before checking this thread. He's hilarious then.
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Old August 31st, 2014, 02:26 AM   #1938
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I've made it a habit to have a few glasses of wine before checking this thread. He's hilarious then.
Some of the things he is saying is what Hans Teeuwen would say on stage. Difference is that Hans is joking...
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Old August 31st, 2014, 11:06 AM   #1939
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Gates are common at many railway stations in the UK, so there is the same issue with shops losing business as a result. However the Dutch situation is better as you are allowed to access the shops for free as long as you have an OV-Chipkaart. And presumably nearly all Dutch people wanting to access the shops without travelling have an OV-Chipkaart.

The London Oyster card charges you the minimum fare from that station if you check out at the same station, for example if there are train delays.
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Old August 31st, 2014, 10:58 PM   #1940
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There was quite a lot of movement around Den Haag HS this weekend.
Track 4 (usually used as Leiden > Rotterdam) is being rebuilt, and track 5 (Rotterdam > Den Haag CS) is interrupted as well.

As a result trains run only on the external tracks, the usual at-platform interchanges are not possible, capacity is reduced and NS is applying a special light timetable to cope with this. Many trains are missing. The good news is that it seems this timetable is working pretty well, I saw no delays.
I read that also the Brussel direct is limited at Rotterdam CS.





Meanwhile the nearby Transports Museum has been sending out a lot of historic trams and buses... which means I missed a recreational event.

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