daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old August 31st, 2014, 11:39 PM   #1941
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

Thanks for the pictures, Wilhem275! That's a tamping machine, it is used to make the tracks more durable, and it helps improve the quality of the ride for the passengers. The machine lifts the rails, packs the ballast underneath and then lowers the rails back onto the track bed.


Next weekend there will be some changes as well, due to engineering works around Schiphol and between Dordrecht and Lage Zwaluwe.

As a consequence:
- The Benelux train will not run between Roosendaal and The Hague
- The IC Den Haag - Venlo had been reduced to Lage Zwaluwe - Venlo
- The IC Direct Amsterdam - Breda has been rerouted to Den Haag Centraal - Breda. It will only call at Den Haag HS and Rotterdam, it won't call at Delft
- There will be buses between Zwijndrecht, Dordrecht and Lage Zwaluwe


Apart from that, Breda will see the opening of the new station building on the north side. The old station hall will be closed and subsequently demolished, after which construction on the 2nd half of the station will continue. The city centre side of Breda railway station is expected to re-open in Spring 2016.
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old September 1st, 2014, 11:37 AM   #1942
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,463
Likes (Received): 6162

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Meanwhile the nearby Transports Museum has been sending out a lot of historic trams and buses... which means I missed a recreational event.
They're open every Sunday in the summer (April - October) from 10:00h until 17:00h. Entry to the museum and the yard is free. If you want to go on a ride with one of the trams, tickets are € 5,- a pop irrc.

Saturday the 13th of September is Open Monument's Day so they'll have more stuff going on.

Check the calendar on their website for more information.
__________________

Wilhem275 liked this post
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2014, 01:20 PM   #1943
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2155

Quote:
Originally Posted by radamfi View Post
In Europe, only really Switzerland can claim to have better local public transport than the Netherlands and they have a much bigger captive market as cycling is much less popular.
If you take the trains into account then it might hold. If we talk about just local public transport..not true.
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2014, 01:46 PM   #1944
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2155

Quote:
Originally Posted by radamfi View Post
Gates are common at many railway stations in the UK, so there is the same issue with shops losing business as a result. However the Dutch situation is better as you are allowed to access the shops for free as long as you have an OV-Chipkaart. And presumably nearly all Dutch people wanting to access the shops without travelling have an OV-Chipkaart.
The problem with solid gates is that at the time they will be implemented the technology is already obsolete. Heck, it is obsolete already now.

I was since ever dreaming about a wireless/contact-less solution to the ticketing fare problem. I.e. the fare for the whole journey would be automatically deducted when you get out of the vehicle at your end destination, without you doing anything, but carrying a card or some other device with you. The technology is already there for this. Those not carrying anything would be spotted and reported to the driver/conductor.

I think that the proof of paid fare should be indeed needed just for the vehicle and not the stations etc, so that those could be as much public as possible.

Another possibility aside from using technology, is making public transport completely free of charge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_public_transport. Surprisingly, it is relatively not that costly as it might seem, especially in the case of the local public transport. The fare accounts for less than 40 - 50 % of the operational costs of the public transport in the big European cities. We should also realize that the cost of being able to collect fare are also substantial and could be reduced to almost zero by abolishing fare altogether.

I am not sure but I think that the revenue from the ticket sales is only some 30 - 40 % of the NS revenue as well... How much does the investment and operation of the OV system costs in terms of the revenue?
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2014, 04:41 PM   #1945
aleander
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Amsterdam, Warsaw
Posts: 99
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
If you don't require people to check-in on travel products, NS would lose the ability to collect, in principle, data from all domestic journeys.
You do realize that's a good thing, do you? I know that you're a fan of everyone going full Borg, but there're strong privacy concerns involved, and in case you're hoping for "anonymizing" data, you can actually de-anonymize such complete data pretty easily. And it's not like sampling didn't prove itself quite sufficient.

As for the gates, hopefully they'll give up on them just like they gave up on the silly Fyra trains.
aleander no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2014, 05:09 PM   #1946
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

One of the most impressive things I see on the NS network is the 6+4 VIRM do they also run as 6+6 anywhere?
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2014, 05:29 PM   #1947
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
One of the most impressive things I see on the NS network is the 6+4 VIRM do they also run as 6+6 anywhere?
Occasionally it does happen, but as far as I know it's not planned for anymore. Higher frequencies (4 tph) has slightly reduced the need for longer trains so they do 6+4 max.

In the past even 6+4+4 was not uncommon on some routes.
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2014, 05:39 PM   #1948
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,463
Likes (Received): 6162

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
One of the most impressive things I see on the NS network is the 6+4 VIRM do they also run as 6+6 anywhere?
Absurdly long VIRMs (14 or 16 carriages) do exist, but only without passengers and in order to move them around for logistical reasons.

image hosted on flickr


With passengers on board, the maximum is 14 carriages OR 3 sets. Something to do with the technology and the breaking system iirc.

So with passengers on board, the possibilities are:
4 (4)
6 (6)
4+4 (8)
4+6 (10)
6+6 (12)
4+4+4 (12)
6+4+4 (14)

Combinations of 6+6 (12) are relatively common. But if you want to see a fabled 6+4+4 (14), you'll have to seek it out somewhere. I don't think they even run those in the Randstad.
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2014, 05:43 PM   #1949
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,463
Likes (Received): 6162

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
Occasionally it does happen, but as far as I know it's not planned for anymore. Higher frequencies (4 tph) has slightly reduced the need for longer trains so they do 6+4 max.

In the past even 6+4+4 was not uncommon on some routes.
I remember frequently traveling between The Hague and Middelburg about 10 or 12 years ago and they would regularly send a 6+4+4 to Roosendaal, after which 6+4 continued to Vlissingen.

Of course these days, there are no more ICs in Zeeland so a 6+4 would be too long. Just a single 6 carriage set is the maximum.
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2014, 05:44 PM   #1950
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21241

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
Another possibility aside from using technology, is making public transport completely free of charge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_public_transport. Surprisingly, it is relatively not that costly as it might seem, especially in the case of the local public transport. The fare accounts for less than 40 - 50 % of the operational costs of the public transport in the big European cities. We should also realize that the cost of being able to collect fare are also substantial and could be reduced to almost zero by abolishing fare altogether.

I am not sure but I think that the revenue from the ticket sales is only some 30 - 40 % of the NS revenue as well... How much does the investment and operation of the OV system costs in terms of the revenue?
In Netherlands, financing models are more transparent: government entities pay for subsidides like free student passes or reduced senior fares/subscriptions.

NS is quite profitable. It pays for its operational, rolling stock expense including capital, and station fees, and fees to Pro-Rail. It has been that way for 15 years I think.

Making train transportation free would create much more demand on extreme commutes due to the peculiar housing market.

I think RET collects 53% of its revenue from fares.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aleander View Post
You do realize that's a good thing, do you? I know that you're a fan of everyone going full Borg, but there're strong privacy concerns involved, and in case you're hoping for "anonymizing" data, you can actually de-anonymize such complete data pretty easily. And it's not like sampling didn't prove itself quite sufficient.
The major concern for privacy-meant people in that aspect are not public transportation credit cards, but cell phone/computer/tablet access logs and, in the near future, advanced facial recognition apps + cameras everywhere (both CCTV and on cellphones of people)
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2014, 06:11 PM   #1951
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by verfmeer View Post
Most facilities (including Luggage lockers) are available without going through the gates. Only some food services are inside there, to provide food for passengers changing trains. If you want to buy some food there when travelling by bus, you can enter and exit through the gates without paying anything, as soon as you leave within an hour.
In Amsterdam you need to pass through the gates to get to the Luggage lockers. If you then want to go to the AH you need to pass through the gates twice (out then in again)...

If something goes wrong when checking out you'll be deducted 20 euros, and by the time you find out...
The thing is that, give the fact that the customer him or herself can no longer verify that the system has done the right thing the PT companies will have no option than to give the customer the benefit of doubt whenever one complains. I predict that a certain class of traveller will quickly figure out how to game the system...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2014, 06:13 PM   #1952
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by radamfi View Post
Gates are common at many railway stations in the UK, so there is the same issue with shops losing business as a result. However the Dutch situation is better as you are allowed to access the shops for free as long as you have an OV-Chipkaart. And presumably nearly all Dutch people wanting to access the shops without travelling have an OV-Chipkaart.
What about tourists?
They are big users of the facilities at stations...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2014, 06:37 PM   #1953
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrAronymous View Post
Well it sort of makes sense if you want the operators to get their fair share of the fare.
If I check in at Harlingen, and out at Amsterdam Centraal it should be obvious that I transferred from Arriva to NS in Leeuwarden. It's not necessary to require people to check out and in again at Leeuwarden. Especially when your three minute transfer has been reduced to one minute because a train was a bit late...
Quote:
Is this a valid argument though? Would it work in Switzerland? "Oh sorry mr. conducter the ticket machines where hidden behind people using them. Don't have a valid ticket now, entschuldigung".
In Switzerland you would normally only have to deal with a validator or a ticket vending machine once a day, at the beginning of your trip. Most people have transit passes, this requires you to go to the ticket office or a machine once a year, and after that all you need to do is have your pass with you...


Quote:
If you want to go to a station on the Arriva network, you buy one with the Arriva machine. If you want to go on the NS network, you buy a ticket from the NS machine. And yes you will have to look on a map first to find out which one goes where, but you would do the same at the S-bahn in Germany or the RER in Paris.
Actually you can buy S-Bahn tickets from any DB ticket vending machine. If you arrive by train you don't even need to buy an S-Bahn ticket...

And yes, you can buy a single ticket Harlingen-Leeuwarden from an NS machine, but not from an Arriva machine...


Quote:
It's not big deal really. But.. they shouldn't be and they're not? NMBS(a.k.a. transferring to a train which is going out of the country), buy a ticket.
There is actually a station in The Netherlands where only an NMBS train stops. It has only an NS card reader. What is according to you the procedure when traveling to/from that station?


Quote:
So let's spend even more money on removing them and let the fare evaders back on the network.
The system is not going to keep fare evaders out.

Quote:
We still have them. They just have a chip inside them now. Validation of the travel product must be done before boarding the train. Seems kinda logical when you think about it.
If validating before travel is so logical, then why does almost no railway require it?
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2014, 06:47 PM   #1954
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21241

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
If validating before travel is so logical, then why does almost no railway require it?
1. NS increasingly treats its trains as a sort of very-large-metro-network (checking on entrance is common in many European metro (subway) systems, CH/D/A being the exception with their absence of gates that you find in I/F/E/UK/S/N)

2. NS is technologically more advanced in terms of fare collection than any other heavy rail national passenger system in the World.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2014, 06:51 PM   #1955
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post

2. NS is technologically more advanced in terms of fare collection than any other heavy rail national passenger system in the World.
Because of the chip?
Road_UK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2014, 06:58 PM   #1956
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

Oh come on, they don't even know how to split shares without asking their own passengers
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2014, 07:02 PM   #1957
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21241

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Because of the chip?
Yes, I don't know of any major national rail system (I'm not talking of suburban railways or metropolitan rail) that uses RFID as the sole method of fare collection for 99,5% of trips.

Even countries that are highly automated like Japan still resort to magnetic paper strips in some railways.

I'm huge fan of "paperless" systems They look, feel and convey a message of a futuristic, efficient, super-connected and modern system, whereas paper ticket smack of steam boilers.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2014, 07:07 PM   #1958
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Yes, I don't know of any major national rail system (I'm not talking of suburban railways or metropolitan rail) that uses RFID as the sole method of fare collection for 99,5% of trips.

Even countries that are highly automated like Japan still resort to magnetic paper strips in some railways.

I'm huge fan of "paperless" systems They look, feel and convey a message of a futuristic, efficient, super-connected and modern system, whereas paper ticket smack of steam boilers.
Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. (666)

What is it?
Many Christians believe the 666 mark will be a biochip implant to create the cashless society of Revelation 13.
Road_UK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2014, 08:19 PM   #1959
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2155

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
In Netherlands, financing models are more transparent: government entities pay for subsidides like free student passes or reduced senior fares/subscriptions.

NS is quite profitable. It pays for its operational, rolling stock expense including capital, and station fees, and fees to Pro-Rail. It has been that way for 15 years I think.

Making train transportation free would create much more demand on extreme commutes due to the peculiar housing market.

I think RET collects 53% of its revenue from fares.
What do you mean? Transparent compared to what?

Yes, it is financed by subsidies. Free student passes etc is nothing else than public financing.

When I looked into some annual reports it looked like 40 % of the revenues max from sold tickets (i.e. the not subsidized revenue).

(Edit: and what are the numbers about the subsidized work commuting? Those enter the picture as well but are not that transparent at all)

If limiting access to the public transport should be a reason for fare it stops having the function of the public transport imho. I did not say it would be easy, but it would be doable and it would be not at prohibitively large costs. Last not least, the capacity problem could be solved in other way.

And we did not yet mention all the positive effects it could and would have on the economy and the welfare.

Last edited by Surel; September 1st, 2014 at 08:49 PM.
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2014, 08:28 PM   #1960
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21241

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
What do you mean? Transparent compared to what?
Compared to the way many other countries manage it, requiring the transportation companies to fund these discount themselves with cross-subsidization. Since the benefits are clearly separated from fare policy of NS or other train companies, it is easy to adjust them without having to revamp the whole thing (right now free travel for students is under fire).

Quote:
If limiting access to the public transport should be a reason for fare it stops having the function of the public transport imho. I did not say it would be easy, but it would be doable and it would be not at prohibitively large costs. Last not least, the capacity problem could be solved in other way.
Public != free at end-user point.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium