St Peter's Square Regeneration

[rolybling]

I am in favour of less buses in and around the square, what I'm not so happy about is another bus station being built in the city centre to achieve it. In fact I'd prefer NO bus stations in the centre. It makes much more sense to have buses run through the centre and onwards to another destination, surely?

I'd propose scrapping Piccadilly bus depot and building other depot's outside of the centre on all sides north, south etc. All buses would simply travel through the centre and instead of terminating at Piccadilly they would travel on to somewhere outside town and terminate there. The 263 from Altrincham could terminate in Whitefield for example.

Look in to the possibilities of using more Metrolink stations as bus stations too. Ticket integration would be vital though for that to work.

Also on routes that are over subscribed like Wilmslow/Oxford Rd for example I would consider restricting companies able to operate on those routes to 2 maximum.This would go some way to reducing bus traffic around St Peter's Sq and other parts of town, Portland St certainly has too many buses travelling up and down it and something should be done about that too. If the council is serious about reducing bus traffic in the centre of town then surely this sort of idea should be considered.

[spoonsbeatfish]

Originally Posted by rolybling

I am in favour of less buses in and around the square, what I'm not so happy about is another bus station being built in the city centre to achieve it. In fact I'd prefer NO bus stations in the centre. It makes much more sense to have buses run through the centre and onwards to another destination, surely?

I'd propose scrapping Piccadilly bus depot and building other depot's outside of the centre on all sides north, south etc. All buses would simply travel through the centre and instead of terminating at Piccadilly they would travel on to somewhere outside town and terminate there. The 263 from Altrincham could terminate in Whitefield for example.

Look in to the possibilities of using more Metrolink stations as bus stations too. Ticket integration would be vital though for that to work.

Also on routes that are over subscribed like Wilmslow/Oxford Rd for example I would consider restricting companies able to operate on those routes to 2 maximum.This would go some way to reducing bus traffic around St Peter's Sq and other parts of town, Portland St certainly has too many buses travelling up and down it and something should be done about that too. If the council is serious about reducing bus traffic in the centre of town then surely this sort of idea should be considered.

The Mayfield coach station is further out from the city centre and although not significantly, so is the Chorlton Street bus station i.e. both will bring less traffic and buses into the city centre.

In terms of connectivity I agree and most would but it is not always a feasible possibility. They managed successfully with Shudehill but the connections at both St Peters Square and Piccadilly are going to be removed or seriously reduced. The Mayfield station should increase connections via Picc Metro stop.

If your idea was for buses to skirt around the city centre then maybe a stop on Trafford street connecting with the Deansgate metro stop could work well? Quick access off the Mancunian way on the edge of the city centre while also providing direct pedestrian access to Deansgate (and probably First street which will need good transport connections).

(As Moseley Street gets pedestrianised and made tram only, the St Peters Square stop could be closed and the Moseley one moved down to outside the Art Gallery by Nicholas Street, allowing for a further improved environment in the square and better connections with Chorlton Street)

In terms of people deliberately making two leg journeys using buses and metrolink, as you said ticket integration must be improved but in any case could the Metrolink cope with that? If it already reaches capacity at peak times, could it manage with an extra influx of people taking the bus to a metrostop and then the metro into town? If the demand was there more trains and more frequency should be introduced but could we get the money for it. The bus companies would probably strongly resist measures that would probably reduce their income as fares are shared with Metrolink.

As for buses carrying on straight throughout the city, the BRT schemes were deliberately designed with this in mind and there probably should be some more emphasis towards this but in general the hub and spokes model works well. Having the majority of buses stop all at the same place allows for much greater connection possibilities. Bus routes that skirt around avoiding city centres will not suffer too much from this pitfall but routes directly going through city centres will suffer dramatically in terms of speed (especially during peak hours). Just look at Deansgate at 5pm, a bus going from east to west through the city rather than just stopping at Shudehill could have its journey time increased by half an hour. With a central bus station there is always the potential to create a much improved waiting environment, with indoor seating, toilets, cafes etc.

[timo]

surely the most important question following from the bump is....is lizzy house getting demolished or not?

[CDX]

Originally Posted by timo

surely the most important question following from the bump is....is lizzy house getting demolished or not?

Oct-08 from Glenn Howell's website:

http://www.glennhowells.co.uk/news
15 / 10 / 08

Following a two stage national competition launched in May this year, Glenn Howells Architects have been appointed by The Greater Manchester Property Venture Fund (GMPVF) and Argent to develop proposals for a 350,000 sq ft office led scheme in St Peter's Square, Manchester City Centre.

Planning submission is expected to take place in April 2009.

I guess we will see if this gets scaled down to a refurb job.

Also see this thread:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...379875&page=11

[dd528]

Originally Posted by rolybling

I am in favour of less buses in and around the square, what I'm not so happy about is another bus station being built in the city centre to achieve it. In fact I'd prefer NO bus stations in the centre. It makes much more sense to have buses run through the centre and onwards to another destination, surely?

I'd propose scrapping Piccadilly bus depot and building other depot's outside of the centre on all sides north, south etc. All buses would simply travel through the centre and instead of terminating at Piccadilly they would travel on to somewhere outside town and terminate there. The 263 from Altrincham could terminate in Whitefield for example.

I think the idea of smaller, slightly less central depots is one that might have to be looked into in the future, simply given the shortage of suitable large sites in the centre of town that are easily accessible by large volumes of bus traffic.

I'm not sure how much the idea of buses continuing on through the city centre would do to ease current problems though. I would imagine that the majority of passengers on a bus passing through the city centre would be looking to alight in town, and there would be an equal number looking to get on. In essence, people would treat bus services exactly as they do now on the hub and spokes model. If every bus is going to fully unload then load up again at some point in town, then some kind of depot would still be needed due the infeasibility of conducting this amount of passenger movement at a roadside bus stop. I suppose that the one help might be that people might alight over a range of stops in the city centre, however, this only seems likely if every bus going through town follows a route that passes in close proximity to a range of different retail/leisure/business facilities.

Look in to the possibilities of using more Metrolink stations as bus stations too. Ticket integration would be vital though for that to work.

Also on routes that are over subscribed like Wilmslow/Oxford Rd for example I would consider restricting companies able to operate on those routes to 2 maximum.This would go some way to reducing bus traffic around St Peter's Sq and other parts of town, Portland St certainly has too many buses travelling up and down it and something should be done about that too. If the council is serious about reducing bus traffic in the centre of town then surely this sort of idea should be considered.

Might there be legal issues surrounding restriction of competition if the council was to try and implement this? I think, as well, that in the example of Oxford Rd, the vast majority of buses on the route are either Stagecoach (or Stagecoach-operated Magic Bus) or Finglands. Since the demise of UK North, Bullocks is really the only competitor to these two, and seems (to my eyes at least) to provide significantly fewer buses than either of them.

I think part of the problem on this route is that for much of the day, many buses are running close to empty. I'm not sure how much can be done about this. There are a few periods in the day (morning & evening commutes and post-drinking rush) when every bus in the companies' fleets is full along Oxford Rd. They have that number of buses then, and it clearly makes sense to them to run most of them even at quieter points in the day. I think that the convenience of only having to wait a minute or two for a bus at any time certainly appeals to many of the students and other residents who use the Wilmslow Rd/Oxford Rd route, and the bus companies might be reluctant to rock that boat.

[slipdigby]

Originally Posted by dd528

Might there be legal issues surrounding restriction of competition if the council was to try and implement this? I think, as well, that in the example of Oxford Rd, the vast majority of buses on the route are either Stagecoach (or Stagecoach-operated Magic Bus) or Finglands. Since the demise of UK North, Bullocks is really the only competitor to these two, and seems (to my eyes at least) to provide significantly fewer buses than either of them.

The council, through GMITA and the PTE could implement a Quality contract to reregulate bus operations on the Wilmslow Road corridor (and others) under the 2000 Transport Act. However, even though the statutory requirements to implement such a QBC scheme have been significantly relaxed in the 2008 Local Transport Act, there has yet been no attempts by any authority to try and implement this as yet. Any such scheme would no doubt be very strongly opposed by the "big 5" companies in the industry.

The main operators on the corridor are currently Stagecoach (and their Megabus branded vehicles) and Finglands. Bullocks are limited to operating the contracted 147 Piccadilly-University shuttle. In addition, Arriva operate the 16 to Altrincham, First the 53 between the University and Dickenson Road, and Haytons another subsidised service (the 44 I think).

I think part of the problem on this route is that for much of the day, many buses are running close to empty. I'm not sure how much can be done about this. There are a few periods in the day (morning & evening commutes and post-drinking rush) when every bus in the companies' fleets is full along Oxford Rd. They have that number of buses then, and it clearly makes sense to them to run most of them even at quieter points in the day. I think that the convenience of only having to wait a minute or two for a bus at any time certainly appeals to many of the students and other residents who use the Wilmslow Rd/Oxford Rd route, and the bus companies might be reluctant to rock that boat.

Agreed, the nature of passenger flows on the route are that dispersed that it would be very difficult to substitute larger or place additional resources onto the route to cover where the peaks are along the route. Stagecoach already do this at certain points, eg; starting short at All Saints running out of town during the afternoon Peaks rather than starting from Piccadilly. In an ideal world, we' have something like the Metrobus 5 BRT service in Hamburg, articulated buses every 2-3 mins with off bus ticketing and significant priority measures. Or failing that, dare I suggest a tram?

Slip

[Frodz]

Originally Posted by dd528

I think, as well, that in the example of Oxford Rd, the vast majority of buses on the route are either Stagecoach (or Stagecoach-operated Magic Bus) or Finglands. Since the demise of UK North, Bullocks is really the only competitor to these two,

I may be wrong but weren't Bullocks bought by Stagecoach?

[slipdigby]

Originally Posted by Frodz

I may be wrong but weren't Bullocks bought by Stagecoach?

The bus ops were, the coaching side (and one contract operation - the 147) remain with the Bullock family.

Slip

[Goldie]

Stephenson Bell's indicative plans for the square show a new building on the Prnicess Street side with what looks like a reflecting pool in front of it. Tram lines still in the same place. Of course, the Council are planning to put it all out to competition so I guess none of that's fixed...

[The Longford]

Originally Posted by Goldie

Stephenson Bell's indicative plans for the square show a new building on the Prnicess Street side with what looks like a reflecting pool in front of it. Tram lines still in the same place. Of course, the Council are planning to put it all out to competition so I guess none of that's fixed...

Where have you seen the SB proposal goldie?

[Gavin]

are both roads through the square closed?

I'm interested to see the indicative plans. Perhaps the Council wanted them as a guide for competition entries.

Could find anything on the SB website.

[uklad1979]

When I was told about this about 1 yr ago these were the basic plan...
Roads closed
Trams to run to the left hand side coming from Mosley St and following the current road layout
Tram stop moved to central island stop next to Lizzy House
Larger Big Wheel moved to Peace Gardens site which will be filled and leveled
Large Sq area outside the Libary/Town hall extention with greenery and water

[Mez]

Roads closed Good
Trams to run to the left hand side coming from Mosley St and following the current road layout Good
Tram stop moved to central island stop next to Lizzy House Good
Larger Big Wheel moved to Peace Gardens site which will be filled and leveled hmmmm
Large Sq area outside the Libary/Town hall extention with greenery and water Good

[nicky2tu]

Will roads be closed for just cars or will it include buses as well?

[uklad1979]

Originally Posted by nicky2tu

Will roads be closed for just cars or will it include buses as well?

From what I was told AGES ago all the roads would go as discribed above. I think this was the councils "wish list" for how would like the area to be redeveloped and most likely need some cash from the councils development partners to get most of it done.

[uklad1979]

A new status has been added in St Peters Sq on the little plinth outside the rate room enterence. I think it is made of bronze? It looks good and the plinth has been rebuilt last week for a second time since it was removed from under a box that it had been under for years. I have pix but no idea how to host them.

[Bluegate74]

Originally Posted by uklad1979

A new status has been added in St Peters Sq on the little plinth outside the rate room enterence. I think it is made of bronze? It looks good and the plinth has been rebuilt last week for a second time since it was removed from under a box that it had been under for years. I have pix but no idea how to host them.

This statue is Called 'Humanity Adrift' By John Cassidy and once stood in Picc. Gds. where the Bank of New Yok now stands.

[JDRS]

I've always thought the attractive building in St Peters Sq. (two along from the main library in the first pic) should be lit up at night. Squares should be well lit and highlighting landmarks and high quality buildings should be a priority.

As to Piccadilly bus station, I can't see it going. Admittedly that side of the square is not the most pleasant, but I can't see buses unloading and loading large numbers of passengers at street side stops. Accessibility has to be taken into account. A new bus station around the corner from the square within close proximity, but not overtly obvious, would be desirable, but not practical.

[Cherguevara]

Originally Posted by JDRS

As to Piccadilly bus station, I can't see it going. Admittedly that side of the square is not the most pleasant, but I can't see buses unloading and loading large numbers of passengers at street side stops. Accessibility has to be taken into account. A new bus station around the corner from the square within close proximity, but not overtly obvious, would be desirable, but not practical.

It's planned for the chop, it's just a matter of funding. Admittedly that's no small matter but unless the council have changed their minds the intention is to move National Express from Chorlton Street, south Manchester buses to Chorlton Street and Trafford and Salford buses to a new interchange at Salford Central. Which does suggest eventually that St Peter's will eventually be bus free.

Click

With the TIF it was pretty much assured. Now it's just a plan.

[JDRS]

So they're going to evict National Express? I thought they had recently finished a renovation of the coach station? Doesn't sound like a bad plan though, seeing as it's only a short walk to the rail station and city centre. Perhaps some South Manchester buses could be re-routed up Peter Street and along Deansgate to a terminus closer to the Arndale?