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Old September 30th, 2010, 11:31 PM   #201
foxmulder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
300 km/h average ? This is also fantasy. 200 km/h would be far more realistic.
That makes a 600 km journey, and in a bit country like China, 600 km is not
much. I would say that HSR in China is going to make the life of people who
alreadu use rail much better, make a good dent in the car and bus travel
market, but I bet it will leave most of the air trafic almost untouched.
As I said in another discussion already, the main competitor of HSR is the
private automobile, not the plane.
chornedsnorkack has already answered

300km/h average is very real. Read the news
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Old September 30th, 2010, 11:32 PM   #202
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968 km is a lot. And we are still at 3:16.
And don't forget 3:16 is not non-stop time.
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Old October 1st, 2010, 04:05 PM   #203
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Cars often go to destinations which are too small for HSR stations.
But HSTs are not limited to HSR stations. And people taking HSTs can take other trains (and buses) too. In a well thought out system the high speed trains form the backbone. Regional and commuter trains serve as feeders, with the last mile done by bus or taxi. Where this is warranted a high speed train can continue on a conventional line, and serve stations along that line.
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Old October 1st, 2010, 05:57 PM   #204
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But HSTs are not limited to HSR stations. And people taking HSTs can take other trains (and buses) too. In a well thought out system the high speed trains form the backbone. Regional and commuter trains serve as feeders, with the last mile done by bus or taxi.
Or foot or bicycle. But it is not HSR which is competing against cars for the last mile. Commuter trains and trams are.
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Old October 1st, 2010, 09:00 PM   #205
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Very nice articles! They are interesting to me!
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Old October 9th, 2010, 06:54 PM   #206
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A 100-200km/h electric freight train between China and EU makes perfect sense to save time and money!

Plus, having electric freight trains instead of 40km/h diesel ships means the transport price wont increase due to the ever-increasing oil price.
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Old October 9th, 2010, 07:06 PM   #207
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Plus, having electric freight trains instead of 40km/h diesel ships means the transport price wont increase due to the ever-increasing oil price.
!!!!!

I never really saw the point of investing so much money in a project like this, but I think I've suddenly seen the light. That's a pretty solid point you've got there.
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Old October 9th, 2010, 08:23 PM   #208
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A 100-200km/h electric freight train between China and EU makes perfect sense to save time and money!
Not as long as containerships are so efficient and cheap

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Plus, having electric freight trains instead of 40km/h diesel ships means the transport price wont increase due to the ever-increasing oil price.
You can run ships on nuclear energy.
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Old October 9th, 2010, 08:57 PM   #209
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You'd not like to give small Central Asia states leverage of the EU-China commerce. It would be hell, much worse then having Ukraine hijacking natural gas EU buys from Russia from time to time.
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Old October 9th, 2010, 09:29 PM   #210
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You'd not like to give small Central Asia states leverage of the EU-China commerce. It would be hell, much worse then having Ukraine hijacking natural gas EU buys from Russia from time to time.
Which is precisely why second route needs to be built. Russia can send goods to EU through Ukraine or Belarus as necessary, but between China and EU, the alternatives are Russia north of Caspian or Iran south of Caspian. And Russia already has Transsiberian. Building a new railway from China through Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and Iran to Turkey would mean that Transsiberian is no longer the only way. Yet these Central Asia states are not getting all that much leverage, because Russia and Transsiberian will still be there.
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Old October 9th, 2010, 10:25 PM   #211
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A 100-200km/h electric freight train between China and EU makes perfect sense to save time and money!
Cost of erecting electric overhead power line is far greater than running the train on diesel.
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Old October 9th, 2010, 10:54 PM   #212
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Cost of erecting electric overhead power line is far greater than running the train on diesel.
O rly? Perhaps you can supply us with some calculations.. Of course, this is a long term investment. It will take years before the investment on electric overhead power line proves profitable. But one thing is for certain - fossile fuel are depletable.
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Old October 9th, 2010, 10:56 PM   #213
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Quote:
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Cost of erecting electric overhead power line is far greater than running the train on diesel.
Ok, but oil will only get more expensive while electricity can be collected by many ways and forever after.
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Old October 10th, 2010, 12:17 AM   #214
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O rly? Perhaps you can supply us with some calculations.. Of course, this is a long term investment.
And it will cost a fortune to maintain the powerline through rugged terrains of some unstable 3rd world countries.

Quote:
fossile fuel are depletable.
Diesel can be replaced by biodiesel. There will be substitutes.
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Old October 10th, 2010, 07:01 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
Cost of erecting electric overhead power line is far greater than running the train on diesel.
The whole Trans-Siberian has been electrified, and this is in oil-rich Russia.
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Old October 11th, 2010, 12:05 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by get400 View Post
A 100-200km/h electric freight train between China and EU makes perfect sense to save time and money!

Plus, having electric freight trains instead of 40km/h diesel ships means the transport price wont increase due to the ever-increasing oil price.
This of course is a totally different proposal, and much more realistic than
this hypothetical super-express passenger train that has been debated
earlier in this thread.

There is a lot of freight traffic between Europe and China, and such a line
could also collect the traffic between Europe and India. Most of this traffic
concerns low-value items that can very well accomodate with the long cruise
times of sea transport, but some volume is worth enough for faster transport.
A railway line would be ideal for that.

One might also mention that rushing the high-value cargo by train between
China and Europe will avoid the piracy problems that happen currently along
the sea routes (Malacca and Somalia). It is much more complicated to hijack
a train than a ship...

Some might argue that there is already the transsiberian for that, but this
line is already jammed to capacity with the russian domestic freight traffic.
And it can't serve India. So why not a second line ?

It would be via Turkey, Iran, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan.
This is, by the way, a resurrection of the ancient silk route...
Most of the required infrastructure already exists (although one might suggest
to build this line entirely with the same axle gauge). Alternatives might be
to try going north of the black sea to avoid crossing the Bosphorus, but
it requires the conflicts in the Caucasus region to be settled first.

Electrification might be an option, perhaps not from the beggining. It can
always be undertaken later, if traffic volumes justify it, and in stages, by
beginning with the most loaded or steep parts of the line.

For me, the biggest obstacle would be all the border bureaucratic
procedures that currently exist in the central asian countries. There is
no point in circulating containers on fast flat cars if they take the same
time as shipping lines because they are detained for weeks at the borders...
This is probably the weak point of this entire proposition. Even if an
agreement is reached with all those countries to abolish the border
procedures, there is no guarantee that, due to political instability, a
regime change doesn not re-instate them a few months later.
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Old October 11th, 2010, 12:12 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Stainless View Post
The whole Trans-Siberian has been electrified, and this is in oil-rich Russia.
Because the volume of traffic grants it. On the transsib, there is, on
average, a freight train every 10/15 minutes. On the new proposed line,
one would certainly not see the same volume of traffic, at least not from
the begginning. But that's not a problem. US railways have proven that
it is possible to operate freight trains efficiently with diesel traction.
Electric equipment can always come later, when it is proven that traffic
levels will justify it. It can also come in stages, the most demanding
line portions first, the diesel engines finishing their useful life on the
others...
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Old October 11th, 2010, 12:19 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Not as long as containerships are so efficient and cheap



You can run ships on nuclear energy.
Containerships are slow and subject to piracy.

And electric trains do run on nuclear energy, today. Not like your
container vessels, which only do in some science-fiction scenario.

I don't want to see a nuclear-powered vessel hijacked by a gang of
somalian tribal warriors. Be it voluntarily or by co-incidence, it can
only lead to a major disaster.

Unless you expect any such ship to be permanently escorted by a US Navy
frigate and a few Marines platoons ?
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Old October 11th, 2010, 12:25 AM   #219
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And it will cost a fortune to maintain the powerline through rugged terrains of some unstable 3rd world countries.
Well, one has to make up his mind. In the first part of the discussion, when
we discussed a passenger high speed line on the same route, this was going
to be a highly developped area, able to provide enough traffic to make a high
speed line viable.

Now it is a set of 3 world countries not even able to properly maintain a
slow-speed catenary.

That high-speed train was supposed to run off roof-mounted solar cells, I
presume ?
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Old October 11th, 2010, 12:42 AM   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Some might argue that there is already the transsiberian for that, but this
line is already jammed to capacity with the russian domestic freight traffic.
And it can't serve India. So why not a second line ?
Plus, monopoly of Russia is costly, and upgrades to a jammed line are difficult.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
It would be via Turkey, Iran, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan.
This is, by the way, a resurrection of the ancient silk route...
Most of the required infrastructure already exists (although one might suggest
to build this line entirely with the same axle gauge). Alternatives might be
to try going north of the black sea to avoid crossing the Bosphorus, but
it requires the conflicts in the Caucasus region to be settled first.
That is stupid. Black Sea is about the same latitude range as Caspian (narrower because more east-west). Going through Caucasus is a completely unnecessary detour. So pass either north of Caspian and Black Sea (which means through Russia) or south of both (through Iran and Caspia).

Incidentally, the Silk Route probably did not connect Iran and Turkey - unnecessary mountains all along. It made a short cut along the foothills through Iraq and Syria.
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Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Electrification might be an option, perhaps not from the beggining. It can
always be undertaken later, if traffic volumes justify it, and in stages, by
beginning with the most loaded or steep parts of the line.
First stage would be connecting Kazakhstan and China. Trade monopoly of Russia naturally sucks for Kazakhstan, so selling their raw materials to rich China is very profitable.

Rail route through Dostyk is there since 1990. The second connection, through Yining and Khorgos is under construction.

The Urumqi-Yining branch is described as the first electrified railway in Xinjiang - the main Lanxin railway is not electrified. How are the plans for the Kazakh side, between Almaty and Khorgos?
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