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Old March 20th, 2010, 04:33 AM   #81
MarcVD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
I wonder how much of that is due to it being as border between France and Spain, and how much of it is due to it being a break of gauge...
All borders in Europe with no break of gauge (or other similar problem,
like break of loading gauge between continental europe and UK) show
much higher levels of goods transit. Borders within EU are not a problem
anymore. Locs valid for all types of power supplies and all types of
signalling systems become the norm. Border stations become useless.
Everywhere, excepted Hendaye-Irun and Cerbère-Port Bou.

I would not make comparisons with the break of gauge between Russia
and the EU contries, precisely because Russia is not in EU so yes there
you have two phenomenons interfering, the beak of gauge and a real
border.

But in communist times, this break in gauge was considered as sufficiently
disrupting to prompt the creation of a line using the russian gauge straight
and deep into Poland, from the USSR border.
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Old March 20th, 2010, 04:50 AM   #82
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This is from a really cool, well made, with AWESOME MAPS transport blog discussing the transcontinental train. If you want to see a map of the route click the link then click the map to zoom in on it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2...ive-rail-plan/
China Promotes Its Transcontinental Ambitions with Massive Rail Plan

» China intends to extend its high-speed rail system towards south Asia and Europe with the goal of two-day journey times between London and Beijing.

If China weren’t already halfway through the construction of the world’s largest high-speed rail network, it would be difficult to take this proposal seriously. But the most populated country on earth has shown no deficit of skill recently in undertaking massive public works projects, and its ambitions — and willingness to finance them — show no sign of slowing.

So the news that China is planning a series of transcontinental high-speed rail lines designed to connect London to Beijing in just two days that broke yesterday in the South China Morning Post should be taken at face value. The proposal, which is mapped out above according to preliminary information about proposed alignments, would likely be the largest infrastructure project — ever. Taking the growing Chinese rail network as the starting point, new 200 mph lines would extend south towards Singapore, north and west into Siberia, and west through India, Kazakhstan, and Turkey, with the eventual goal of linking into the growing European fast train system.

Exact routes are not yet determined, but the general goal of the plan is to increase the region’s mobility through fast rail networks and to join together the mostly disconnected Asian and European systems.

Government officials in China plan to use this project to expand the country’s base of natural resources. Negotiations are already underway with 17 countries, premised on the idea that China would spend its own money building the rail links in exchange for resources it currently lacks. According to Wang Mengshu, a consultant working on the project, “We would actually prefer the other countries to pay in natural resources rather than make their own capital investment.”

China has already agreed to finance a rail link into Myanmar in exchange for the rights to that country’s lithium reserves. Russia and China have announced plans to build a new trans-Siberian link. Iran, Pakistan, and India are each negotiating with China to build domestic rail lines that would link into the overall transcontinental system.

It’s a sort of neo-imperialism desired by the countries to be colonized. Will they regret the selling off of their natural resources in exchange for better transportation offerings? Is this reasonable foreign investment on the part of China, or is it an attempt to take control of the economies of poor countries?

The strategy can’t be more clear: China wants to establish itself as the center of Asian trade, the hub of the world’s largest market. By developing the economies of Cental Asian and Eastern European countries that have missed out on the enormous growth currently being experienced by China, the region will experience increasing trade and development, a result that will in turn aid in expanding the Chinese economy. It would allow China to solidify its position as the dominant player in the Asian economy, with the goal of eliminating any hopes of increasing American or European influence there.

Though China’s economy continues to grow at an unbelievable pace, its slow-growth demographics resulting from the one-child policy mean that it must focus its efforts abroad if it wants to continue expansion into the future.

Despite China’s history of following through with its big rail plans, building a 17-country network is quite different than upgrading just its own lines. Some major problems, like track gauge differences and differing visa requirements, stand in the way of ever completing the project. If they get their way, however, Chinese officials want to complete the project in ten years. It’s an outrageous — and exciting — objective.
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Old March 20th, 2010, 11:53 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
250 km/h max... Not high speed in my book, certainly not for such distances.
It would be very much faster than the existing Transsiberian.

In any case, the Spaniards are developing variable gauge:
http://www.vialibre-ffe.com/noticias...t=3794&cs=mate
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Old March 21st, 2010, 02:18 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Indeed. The Talgo 250 has variable gauge axles. I suppose a variable gauge version of the Talgo 350 could be build if someone wanted one...
The variable gauge version of the Talgo 300 is already on project.
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Old March 21st, 2010, 04:35 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
250 km/h max... Not high speed in my book, certainly not for such distances.
Currently 250 km/h IS high speed.
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Old March 21st, 2010, 07:22 PM   #86
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This would become reality soon.China is seroius about its plans
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Old March 21st, 2010, 10:43 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LUCAFUSAR View Post
Currently 250 km/h IS high speed.
You may think so. But I persist to say that for a line likle the projected one,
with so long distances and so few stops, a top speed of 330-350 km/h
would make much more sense.
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Old March 21st, 2010, 11:35 PM   #88
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While a real high-speed line from Europe to China is quite utopic (alltough it might happen somewhere in the future), the HSL from Urumqi to Beijing is quite realistic.

Also an upgrade of existing lines in Russia to enable average speeds of 100-140 km/h could be more realistic than a real new HSL (considering that Russian even didn't yet manage to build a HSL from Moscow to SPB). Even such moderate speeds would be a big improvement.

So I had the idea to create a virtual timetable for a Berlin - Beijing train for such an infrastructure scenario as described above.

The average speeds in my calculation:
Berlin - Moscow - Perm: 140 km/h/3300 km (top speed 160 km/h)
Perm - Jekaterinburg: 80 km/h/400 km (as the existing line has a lot of curves in the Ural mountains)
Jekaterinburg - Astana - Urumqi: 100 km/h/3000 km
Urumqi - Lanzhou - Xian - Zhengzhou - Beijing: 270 km/h/3600 km

The timetable could be like this (Moscow time for Russia, local time elsewhere:

Berlin 15:00 day 1
Moscow 6:30 day 2
Perm 16:30 day 2
Jekaterinburg 21:30 day 2
Astana 11:30 day 3
Urumqi 8:30 day 4
Lanzhou 15:15 day 4
Xian 17:45 day 4
Beijing 22:00 day 4

Of course over the whole distance still not competitive to flying (regarding travel time, might be different regarding comfort...or for those with a little more time like backpackers), but already improving intermediate distances a lot...




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Old March 22nd, 2010, 08:19 PM   #89
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good post. thanks
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 11:53 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
You may think so. But I persist to say that for a line likle the projected one,
with so long distances and so few stops, a top speed of 330-350 km/h
would make much more sense.
Ah, sorry. Now I got it.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 09:50 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
All borders in Europe with no break of gauge (or other similar problem,
like break of loading gauge between continental europe and UK) show
much higher levels of goods transit.
But these other borders are not between countries that share coasts on _two_ major bodies of water. Most freight in and out of Spain goes by sea, also to the rest of Europe.

Add then that France is not a country that is know for playing fair when it comes to allowing foreign freight operators to operate, nor is SNCF know for good service. As I say, the fact that one of the countries is _France_ is important too. There is for example a lot more railfreight between Germany and Switzerland than there is between France and Switzerland or France and Germany...

Quote:
But in communist times, this break in gauge was considered as sufficiently
disrupting to prompt the creation of a line using the russian gauge straight
and deep into Poland, from the USSR border.
But then this line was not build to transport goods, but to transport soldiers and tanks.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 06:58 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachalnik View Post
While a real high-speed line from Europe to China is quite utopic (alltough it might happen somewhere in the future), the HSL from Urumqi to Beijing is quite realistic.

Also an upgrade of existing lines in Russia to enable average speeds of 100-140 km/h could be more realistic than a real new HSL (considering that Russian even didn't yet manage to build a HSL from Moscow to SPB).
Yes, but Russia did not need a HSL there, because the old rail line was already so good they can simply run Sapsan there.

Would it make sense for Russia to build their first newbuilt HSL somewhere else, where existing rails are not so good?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nachalnik View Post
So I had the idea to create a virtual timetable for a Berlin - Beijing train for such an infrastructure scenario as described above.

The average speeds in my calculation:
Berlin - Moscow - Perm: 140 km/h/3300 km (top speed 160 km/h)
How much of this would be Moscow-Perm?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nachalnik View Post
Perm - Jekaterinburg: 80 km/h/400 km (as the existing line has a lot of curves in the Ural mountains)
Therefore prime candidate for the first Russian HSL....
Quote:
Originally Posted by nachalnik View Post
Berlin 15:00 day 1
Moscow 6:30 day 2
Perm 16:30 day 2
Jekaterinburg 21:30 day 2
Astana 11:30 day 3
Urumqi 8:30 day 4
Lanzhou 15:15 day 4
Xian 17:45 day 4
Beijing 22:00 day 4

Of course over the whole distance still not competitive to flying (regarding travel time, might be different regarding comfort...or for those with a little more time like backpackers), but already improving intermediate distances a lot...
15 hour Moscow-Jekaterinburg would be limited attractiveness if scheduled by day.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 09:55 PM   #93
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Quote:
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Yes, but Russia did not need a HSL there, because the old rail line was already so good they can simply run Sapsan there.
Like any high-speed train (TGV, ICE, ...) can run on any conventional
track but also with conventional performances... The so-called HST
between Moscow and St Petersburg isn't a real high speed operation,
as far as I know. It can run a little bit faster than normal trains on the
same track, like TGV trains run at 220 kph where loco-hauled trains run
only at 200 kph in France, but that's not real high-speed, is it ? Real
high speed needs specially designed track, in-cab signalling, overhead
lines with more mechanical tension because of the speed, etc.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 10:28 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Like any high-speed train (TGV, ICE, ...) can run on any conventional
track but also with conventional performances... The so-called HST
between Moscow and St Petersburg isn't a real high speed operation,
as far as I know. It can run a little bit faster than normal trains on the
same track, like TGV trains run at 220 kph where loco-hauled trains run
only at 200 kph in France, but that's not real high-speed, is it ? Real
high speed needs specially designed track, in-cab signalling, overhead
lines with more mechanical tension because of the speed, etc.
But what is "real high-speed" for? To make the trains useful and competitive.

Moscow - St Petersburg railway already competes well against air and road. Sapsan services despite high price and few stops sell well, so on 5th of April, daily services increase from 3 to 5. Sure, it would be even better when the tracks are upgraded to cut the trip time further from 3:55 to 2:55 or 2:05. But meanwhile, there are other priorities. Like more routes.

The next routes should be Moscow-Nizhny Novgorod and St Petersburg - Helsinki. But after that? Moscow-Sochi? Moscow-Yekaterinburg? Moscow-Minsk?
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Old April 21st, 2010, 09:47 AM   #95
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China's high-speed-rail wizards have the answer
By Tyler Brule

Published: April 20 2010 03:00 | Last updated: April 20 2010 03:00

When China's rail authorities recently announced plans to build a high-speed rail link connecting Beijing with London I had to pause and wonder who would be booking passage on this Eurasian super express?

Would it be a shuttle for Chinese seamstresses heading off to work in Italian sweatshops? Perhaps it might position itself as a pimped up version of the Orient Express catering to Japan's ever-greying tourism market? Or maybe it would turn a profit by selling seats exclusively to train-spotters.

Having spent the better part of the past weekend in Hong Kong trying to figure out how I am going to get 12 colleagues back to London, I reckon the rail wizards in the People's Republic are on to a winner if they can persuade other nations along the proposed line to play ball and they make the journey comfortable enough.

Rather than dreaming up elaborate routings (Hong-Kong-Auckland-Santiago-São Paulo-London was one option on the table), checking the price of chartering a jet fit for 12 or trying to predict the direction the winds might blow in, it would have been easier to get everyone to a rail platform in Beijing, pack some lunchboxes and send them on their way. Goodness knows, they all would have been back at their desks by now.

Aside from revealing the glaringly obvious - that the world cannot function on fibre-optic cables, huge servers and social network sites alone, and is rather helpless when there is not a fully fuelled Airbus or Boeing close at hand - it also demonstrated that for myriad reasons there is an urgent need to invest in alternative global transport links for days/weeks/ months when volcanic ash, cyber-terrorism and other calamities can bring commerce and continents to a standstill.

On a more practical front, all those companies that decided to close their company travel office a few years ago and are now worried that their foot soldiers might be basking under the blue skies of Bali might want to think about either bringing back a group travel desk or retaining a top-notch travel agency to deal with a logistical headache as big as this one.

I might have the odd issue with some of Beijing's behaviour, but if China wants to build a high-speed rail link that could whisk thousands of people back and forth across the frontier-lands of Europe and Asia every day then I will be the first to buy a rail-pass.

Indeed, there is something quite romantic about a 21st-century whistle-stop business trip calling at Vienna, Kiev, Almaty, Urumqi and Beijing rather than making countless, stressful point-to-point journeys over the course of the year.

Other countries with a vested interest in the rail sector (Canada, Germany, France and Japan) might want to think about filling in other gaps around the globe. Cape Town to Copenhagen and Buenos Aires to Montreal are also up for grabs.

Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2010.
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Old April 26th, 2010, 05:46 PM   #96
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As railfans, I am interested that proposed project.
Hope that project reduces CO2 emission~~

In fact, despite from construction cost and the market,
I think some technical difficulties to be solved.

1. Heavy snow climate in Russia may affact rail service.
2. Too long distance in high speed to travel, High speed train shall be super heavy duty.
For example, carbon rush of pantograph in japanese shinkansen shall be replaced in about 2200Km travel. How to enhance the performance of pantograph?
3. How to regular Maintanance?
4. Rail Gauge: Russia: Board Gauge, Others: Generally Standard Gauge
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Old April 26th, 2010, 08:01 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honwai1983 View Post
As railfans, I am interested that proposed project.
Hope that project reduces CO2 emission~~

2. Too long distance in high speed to travel, High speed train shall be super heavy duty.
For example, carbon rush of pantograph in Japanese shinkansen shall be replaced in about 2200Km travel. How to enhance the performance of pantograph?
This could be solved by multiple pantographs, probably only need one for the current drawn while cruising but more for acceleration. Also could change engines part way through. There could even be a network that works like the CityNightLine network, where trains uncouple and recouple throughout the journey, even in the middle of the night, so trains from all over Europe could reorganise somewhere like Moscow or Kazan, change engines or pantographs, then carry on to different Russian or Chinese cities to the east.

All this seems too massive a project to me, but with the money and pace of Chinese projects and Russia willing to do anything to make sure Europe is at its mercy, this could happen. The only issue I see is that Russia requires a transit visa as does Belarus, which is in the way for a lot of Europe, so it would be a lot more difficult than taking a plane, where you would just need a visa at your destination. So until these countries see passers through on a high speed train as welcome guests which don't need to be spied upon, questioned and made to jump through hoops, this idea is just not feasible for a non-stop trip.
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Old June 29th, 2010, 10:49 AM   #98
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Tarn project delayed due to technical reasons

Kumod Verma, TNN, Jun 29, 2010

PATNA: The Trans Asian Railway Network (Tarn) project has been moving at a snail's pace. Though inter-government agreement on Tarn was approved under the aegis of United Nations Economic and Social Commission for Asia and the Pacific (UNESCAP) two years back, no step has been taken so far to start the civil work. This project is likely to cost about Rs 3,000 crore to the Indian Railways.

According to a Railway Board official, the project would link about 28 countries with rail network. They include India, China, Myanmar, Thailand, Singapore, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Russia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Bulgaria, Mongolia, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Nepal. Patna Junction has also been brought under the approved plan of Tarn, he said, adding the delay in execution of the plan is due to some technical reasons which would be sorted out at the next Tarn meeting to be held in October-November this year.

The official, associated with the project, said that this project would enable India to keep a tab on China's railway network. The 2008 agreement on the project at Busan (South Korea) had identified the missing railway lines of international importance, he said.

The Rail India Technical and Economic Services (RITES), which has studied the feasibility aspect of the project, is hopeful that it would be the most enterprising venture of the Indian Railways. The railway ministry has decided to construct about 97 km new rail link between Jiribam and Tupul (Manipur) in the first phase of work. Though Rs 727.56 crore has been kept reserved in this connection by the railways, civil work is yet to begin, sources said.

According to sources, this ambitious project is slated to be completed in about 20 years. The Busan agreement had stressed on the need of spreading rail network by each member country under their respective jurisdiction to expedite completion of the project. But lack of coordination seems to be coming in the way of this ambitious UN project, sources said.

The official maintained that the project would give a boost to container traffic between South Asia and European countries. The delay in starting the civil work would affect the project as railway officials apprehend escalation in the cost of the project, he said.
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Old June 29th, 2010, 10:05 PM   #99
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This project is just not possible.

There have been past interests in the Trans-Eurasian railway, but strictly for cargo only.

For passenger transportation, nothing beats jumbo jet especially for such a long journey.
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Old September 15th, 2010, 04:17 PM   #100
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Trans-Asian Railway Network

US$25b Pan-Asian link still a distant dream
Quote:
The mammoth railway network, linking Singapore to Istanbul in Turkey, may still remain a distant dream as the project needs a staggering US$25 billion (RM77.5 billion) to complete the Pan-Asian link.

The 114,700km Trans-Asian Railway network, mooted in the 1960s by the United Nations Economic and Social Commission for Asia and Pacific (UNESCAP), may face several challenges, including political and security hurdles, besides project financing.

"There's lack of commitment and governments are taking piece-meal approach. Asean has a good structure, but implementation is lacking," said Madan B. Regmi, an official from UNESCAP transport division, to Bernama.

The massive cross-continent rail network involves 28 countries, chugging through a diverse political and economic landscape, from the island state of Singapore, Malaysia, politically-sensitive Myanmar, densely-populated China and India, flood-stricken Pakistan, Iran, and with Istanbul as its final destination.


With global fatigue in funding following international money crunch after the recent recession, project funding to lay the missing 8,300km rail track, is likely to be a major snag to link major cities, say experts.

"The missing links in the Asian region are big, we need to address the issue of different rail gauges used in different countries, old locomotives running in Asia managed by public enterprises and funding will be a problem, these are the key issues," he added.

The Pan-Asian network, envisaged by UNESCAP, was initiated to improve connectivity, help slash travel time of goods and people, and act as a catalyst to enhance cross-border trade and cultural exchanges.

With a lull looming large over the global economy, transport analysts foresee the project being further delayed, despite almost 40 years of effort to design the rail routes.

"Asia is growing in a big way. We need to connect the economies, the people and the region. We need to think beyond our borders," added Madan.
http://www.btimes.com.my/articles/20...42711/Article/
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