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Old February 11th, 2008, 02:56 PM   #21
elfabyanos
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You created this thread just to argue with me, I'll cut the cussing if you stop being completely stupid.

I know exactly how a transformer works thank you, I was taught this in school 15 years ago.

Reason why changing the voltage in the overhead wires will not affect the ultimate performance of the train? Because another system entirely will prevent the train from working altogether. If you managed to turn off that system then maybe the new voltage would get through to the motors and trip the breakers as you say - BUT THIS IS IRRELEVANT.

If you understand how transformers work what on earth are you talking about frequencies for then?

Quote:
What did Astrom actually say?
Effciency and overall maximum power output has nothing to do with one or the other.
Effciency means conversion rate of a given input/output ratio.
Overall maximum power output is just that.
Potential output ceiling is a complete different issue all together.
Again another baseless assumption.
Firstly I'm not talking about a power ceiling am I, I don't believe there is one do I.

Secondly SNCF will pay for the power that a normal TGV consumes, and no more. The AGV must put out the power to go faster, but not consume any more power. Hence it being a question of efficiency. This is supposed to 'green' technology after all.

If you find yourself feeling like you need to explain something so simple as efficiency to me, next time please just assume that you completely misunderstood me and save yourself some embarrasment.

Anyway, what did Alstom acutally say? Well, I searched far and wide but on the VERY FIRST PAGE on the Alstom site I found a link to this article (I have emboldened various points):

http://www.transport.alstom.com/home...rchive/]Alstom

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alstom Press Release
unveils the AGV, its latest very high speed train, capable of reaching a commercial speed of 360 kph31 January 2008

On Tuesday 5 February, Alstom unveiled the prototype of the AGV*, its latest, new generation very high speed train. This single deck, state-of-the-art train incorporates articulated carriages, a technology which contributed to the success of France’s TGV** train, and a new distributed drive system. The AGV has been designed to reach a commercial speed of 360 kph. The AGV already has its first customer: Italy’s new railway operator, NTV***.

Patrick Kron, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Alstom and Philippe Mellier, President of Alstom Transport, unveiled the prototype of the AGV on Tuesday 5 February 2008 at Alstom Transport’s plant in La Rochelle, France, in the presence of Nicolas Sarkozy, President of France and numerous dignitaries.

During the unveiling ceremony, the futuristic and aerodynamic design of the AGV and its technological innovations were particularly highlighted. The AGV is the first train in the world to feature an articulated architecture (with the bogies located between the carriages), a solution which provides the highest levels of safety, combined with a distributed drive system (the train’s motors being located on the bogies, under the train), an innovation which considerably increases the potential number of seats onboard the train by eliminating the need for locomotives. This novel architecture will give operators great flexibility. They will be able to vary the length of their trains (from 7 to 14 carriages, and from 250 and 650 seats) depending on demand. It will also substantially lower maintenance costs.

The AGV is particularly environmentally friendly, with a 15% lower energy consumption than its main competitors. It also incorporates the latest ERTMS signalling standards so can run on all European lines. Alstom Transport’s sites in France (at La Rochelle, Ornans, Tarbes, Le Creusot, Villeurbanne, Reichshoffen) and in Italy (at Bologna and Savigliano) will all be involved in producing the AGV.

The AGV’s novel traction system has already been tested under extreme conditions, since it was used in the train which set the world rail speed record on 3 April 2007: 574.8 kph.
Quote:
First, weight can differ with the same mass through difference in material.
!!! I can't believe it!!! Ok, let's see what it says on Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weight

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
The distinction between mass and weight is unimportant for many practical purposes because, to a reasonable approximation, the strength of gravity is the same everywhere on the surface of the Earth.
Please please please drop this nonsense about weight, it's painful to watch.

Quote:
Second you need to understand the neccesity of supplementary equipment that may or may not accompany with the main motor.
You mean like the transformer, converter and inverter I told you about? Well I know this - that's how I told you about them in the first place. So how can I not understand the existence of things I've previously described to you in detail?

Quote:
Third and foremost the juggling act of balacing weight with mass to gain optimum performance.
That is what "the trick is to balance weight with mass" means.
See above...

Quote:
As for, "The TGV broke the speed record by using distributed power for the special train"

I think alot of people will tell you differently.
Again see the above press release, specifically "The AGV’s novel traction system has already been tested under extreme conditions, since it was used in the train which set the world rail speed record on 3 April 2007: 574.8 kph."

There are loads of vidoes Alstom has gotten posted on youtube, some of them have computer animations showing the positions of the extra motors on the articulated duplex trailer cars. Go find it for yourself, if not I'll be able to get you the link later.

Still - any response to the cornering forces articles I've posted? Are you prepared to admit defeat on that one yet?

Read this aswell www.jrtr.net/jrtr36/pdf/f32_end.pdf, interesting article about R&D into how to get the Shinkansen up to 360km/h. Notice how on one of the diagrams it shows the motor placed in the bogie right on the axle. Also notice how it doesn't mention problems in maximum power output AT ALL.

Now, if I was to conjecture why the JR 500 has 64 motors and the AGV just 12.

500:64 motors mounted unsprung on the bogie, light enough to not affect ride of the bogie and cause track damage.
AVG:12 motors mounted sprung on the bogie, because they are slightly heavier because there are less of them and to have them unsprung would damage the track.

However, I maintain that the size of the space for the motors themselves is not a performance ceiling.

Maybe the AVG motors are on the car and power is transferred by an axle. I'm doing my best to find out, I'm not sure what you're doing apart from reading my posts and misunderstanding everything and reinventing Newtonian physics.
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Old February 11th, 2008, 04:53 PM   #22
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You are genius too Electrify, never would have thought of this if not for your thread.

Last edited by Electrify; February 11th, 2008 at 10:24 PM.
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Old February 12th, 2008, 08:45 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
Yes there maybe room for bigger motors but there will always be a tradeoff.

Japan's Shinkansen places a motor on each axle and do not relay power to other axles so it requires minimum gear mechanism, they simply use various sensing mechanism and slow the motor directly by lowering the electric feed to each motor to gain best result.

If you look at the diagram of the new French AGV below, you'll see that it has a fairly large motor under the cabin and I assume power is relayed to the 6 axles via power shaft meaning it requires further mechanisms such as transmission gear box, traction control gears and so on which becomes additional weight.(I think it is represented in orange)



Space will always be a premium for any type of transportation vehicle and it has always been the design engineer's main theme to cope with this problem, but at the end they will need to wait for new material and/or new technology to be developed when they hit a potential ceiling.
you should learn to READ before you post ... in that pic it shows that the AUXILIARY components were "downsized" and put under the frames.

TGV has axle mounted motors since TGV SE

Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
But you're making massive assumptions.

Why assume that all the axles are driven?

Here's athe block diagram of the Pendolino, Alstom's currently proven decades old technology



I'm not quite sure where the 9th car has gone, it's supposed to be the class 390 from this Alstom document http://www.theiet.org/events/2007/pr...s.cfm?type=pdf

but regardless it can be seen that only 12 axles are driven. No need for complicated and wasteful mechanical power transfers. If you can find an example of mechanical power transfer in an electric passenger train anywhere in the world I would be most interested and fascinated.

It seems that the "bloc traction" in the AGV diagram is not the traction motor, but the converter/inverter that drives the 3-phase traction motors, motors that would be mounted directly onto the axles. In the Pendolino it's the 4 quadrant converter 3 phase inverter that takes up this position on the vehicle.

As a side I would expect the transformers, converters and inverters to be much larger that the motors, given the astronomical voltages used to reduce losses in the overhead cables.

I see no reason to believe that Alstom have changed their approach for the AGV, when they already have a highly successful high speed (ish) distributed power format format in the Pendolino franchise. There is no need to drive all of the axles. Over half the axles are undriven. Presumably undriven axles could be driven too - so if ever needed this would be an obvious solution to a requirement of doubling the power should it arise.



I'm not sure where you're going with this - all new high speed trains use various sensing methods and slow the motor directly by lowering the electric feed. In fact all electric trains.



The orange is the step-down transformer. Motors need high current-low voltage to give good tractive effort to drive the vehicle, but thin overhead cables need high voltage-low current to avoid transfer losses in distribution. I believe it is dangerous to make such assumptions, as it leads one on a wild goose chase.



Apart from this being obvious to almost any profession or human endeavour, there isn't a specific ceiling anywhere in your musings that you can claim.
You ... blehhhhhhhhhhhhh


You both are having a "deaf man's" discussion ...


Traction Motors are placed on the body of trains to REDUCE unsprung weight ... as in to keep the bogie/wheel weight as low as possible.

Hard-bolting the motor to the axle would be the WORST you could do ...

TGV Locomotive


Traction Motors:
(hung up to the FRAME of the locomotive and connected to the BOGIE)






And besides ... te TGB broke the record while completeley HIGH on NITRO and other stufff

- augmented wheels
- catenary line feed of some 29Kv 50hz (to stress the transformer at maximum)
- locomotive and coaches "lighted"
- ailerons
- etc etc etc ...
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Old February 12th, 2008, 10:15 AM   #24
elfabyanos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post

You both are having a "deaf man's" discussion ...


Traction Motors are placed on the body of trains to REDUCE unsprung weight ... as in to keep the bogie/wheel weight as low as possible.

Hard-bolting the motor to the axle would be the WORST you could do ...
Well thanks for the info dude but what did I say here, erm, let's see

Quote:
500:64 motors mounted unsprung on the bogie, light enough to not affect ride of the bogie and cause track damage.
AVG:12 motors mounted sprung on the bogie, because they are slightly heavier because there are less of them and to have them unsprung would damage the track.
Looking at the pic you posted, if that's how simeple the suspension of the motor is then I now see there's no reason why the smaller shinkansen motors wouldn't be sprung on the (edit - I said bogie before) body too.
So you're just as deaf!!!

Besides, he's trying to prove one of his wild ideas, I'm just trying to say it's nonsense. It's hard trying to prove something that doesn't exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
And besides ... te TGB broke the record while completeley HIGH on NITRO and other stufff

- augmented wheels
- catenary line feed of some 29Kv 50hz (to stress the transformer at maximum)
- locomotive and coaches "lighted"
- ailerons
- etc etc etc ...
They also lowered it, painted stripes down the side and put a massive stereo in the back.

Last edited by elfabyanos; February 12th, 2008 at 07:08 PM. Reason: Okay, however it's mounted it's small and right by the axle
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Old February 12th, 2008, 10:49 AM   #25
elfabyanos
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However, that picture you posted above pretty much guarantees that the size f the actual motors themselves would not be a ceiling on the ultimate performance of the train. If the TGV power car traction motors can be mounted in this way, doing the same for a distributed power veheicle on every bogie then it would be possible to take a distributed power train to 500km/h. This is the aspiration that Tri-Ring was trying to say was a 'pipe dream' due to the size of the motors themselves, I think your picture above Sotavento has conclusively proved that the size of the motors would not be a problem. (If only I had found that info last week!!!)

Anyway - Tri-Ring. Now it's been proved that it's not the motors that would be a problem, why don't we have a debate about why it actually is a 'pipe dream'. IMO that is power consumption, wear on the track and train, straight enough tracks, business justification for the investment required. Within the next dacade I believe we'll see the world's first 400km/h routes being proposed, with implementation nearer 2025.
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Old February 12th, 2008, 04:33 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
They also lowered it, painted stripes down the side and put a massive stereo in the back.
I'm also picturing a burberry TGV, it's not a pleasant sight.
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Old February 13th, 2008, 09:38 AM   #27
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Guys,

I'm not that much clued up with techinicality of trains but I guess you can help. I just wonder if there's any of you who knows which kinds of trains did South Africa order from Japan? Even if you don't have any info about this but based on our railways line, can you perhaps give an idea of which trains will they probabaly order?
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Old February 13th, 2008, 10:31 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willkill View Post
I'm also picturing a burberry TGV, it's not a pleasant sight.
It was also re-branded the TCV - The ChaVvy.

Hi Pule - Here's a link for the Gautrain Electrostars to be provided by Bombardier. I can't find anything about Japanese technology though.
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Old February 14th, 2008, 06:22 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
It was also re-branded the TCV - The ChaVvy.

Hi Pule - Here's a link for the Gautrain Electrostars to be provided by Bombardier. I can't find anything about Japanese technology though.
I think he's on about replacement of the metrorail trains. Probably Hitachi commuter trains or something similar.
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Old February 14th, 2008, 12:13 PM   #30
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Don't Hitachi do everyhing from the A-Train concept? From commuter to High Speed Trains all built on the same technology?
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Old February 14th, 2008, 02:21 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
I think he's on about replacement of the metrorail trains. Probably Hitachi commuter trains or something similar.
Yip that's what I'm talking about.
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Old February 14th, 2008, 02:21 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
I think he's on about replacement of the metrorail trains. Probably Hitachi commuter trains or something similar.
Yip that's what I'm talking about.
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