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Old June 14th, 2013, 04:12 PM   #20601
italystf
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In Italy after WWII, although fascism was declared illegal, fascists criminals were let free instead of being prosecuted for crimes against humanity. Ironically, this law was made by a communist, Palmiro Togliatti, with the pourpose to maintain the "social peace".
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Old June 14th, 2013, 07:18 PM   #20602
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Interestingly, one of the Russian motor cities was named after Palmiro Togliatti. And even cars manufactured there, were based on Italian Fiat 124.
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Old June 14th, 2013, 09:08 PM   #20603
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Interestingly, one of the Russian motor cities was named after Palmiro Togliatti. And even cars manufactured there, were based on Italian Fiat 124.
Yes, and it even survived the fall of the Soviet Union, unlikely Stalingrad and Leningrad. It's cool thinking that there is a big city somewhere in the world named after an Italian, although it's not a part of our history we should be proud of. In fact Togliatti was a very controversial figure in the post-war Italian democracy because of his friendship with Stalin and its admiration of the totalitarian Soviet regime. We could have ended on the wrong side of the iron curtain if he had won the 1948 Italian national elections.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 12:13 AM   #20604
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I didn't knew that Sannicolau Mare is mobster town, when I visited it three weeks ago it looked very peaceful!
Masked and armed Romanian special forces halt match to arrest player

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I looked at the back of a 2 euro coin I had, it was written 2004 and the face looked kind of like Tito.
Is there such a coin, or is it maybe someone else?
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Old June 15th, 2013, 12:25 AM   #20605
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You probably saw the Belgian king.

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Old June 15th, 2013, 12:33 AM   #20606
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Seems to be him, yes, but also seems to have similarities with the "great leader"
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Old June 15th, 2013, 01:11 AM   #20607
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You probably saw the Belgian king.



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Old June 15th, 2013, 01:39 AM   #20608
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No glasses on Tito.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 01:56 AM   #20609
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When Slovenia issued this commemorative coins some Italian politicians complained because it was offensive for the victims of Tito regime:
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Old June 15th, 2013, 03:11 AM   #20610
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this coin was a provocative move by ministry of finance under left government (2008-2011) and wasn't needed.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 04:18 AM   #20611
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When Slovenia issued this commemorative coins some Italian politicians complained because it was offensive for the victims of Tito regime:
These things are always difficult to discuss, because some people (Italians) give more importance to victims, while others give more importance to fight against fascists. The Italian coin for 50 cents with Marcus Aurelius could also be offensive to Christians. Anyhow, it was probably a provocation, but I'm pretty sure it was directed at the Slovenian right, not Italians.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 12:19 PM   #20612
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These things are always difficult to discuss, because some people (Italians) give more importance to victims, while others give more importance to fight against fascists. The Italian coin for 50 cents with Marcus Aurelius could also be offensive to Christians. Anyhow, it was probably a provocation, but I'm pretty sure it was directed at the Slovenian right, not Italians.
At least in Italy there were two kinds of partisans in 1943-45: the "white partisans", who fought against the nazi-fascism for a democratic government, and the "red partisans", who fought against the nazi-fascism for communism. They wanted to give Friuli-Venezia Giulia to Tito and fought not only against nazi-fascists, but also against the so called "white partisans" that were antifascist but also anti-communist and pro-democracy. In February 1945, in the village of Porzus, near Udine, a command of red partisans, the "Brigata Garibaldi" killed 17 white partisans (Brigata Osoppo). Ironically now an important boulevard in the outskirt of Udine is named "Via Brigate Garibaldi e Osoppo".
While the activity of white partisans was honourable in the struggle against the nazi-fascist oppression, I don't think that red partisans deserve the same recognition. One who fights against a dictatorial regime to impose another dictatorial regime isn't a peace hero, isn't it?
But until recently it was almost a taboo to tell about crimes committed by certain groups of partisans and even foibe killings (against Italian civilians including women and children) were kept almost secret in Italy.
About the Slovenian 2€ coin, 2011 was the 20th anniversary of Slovenian indipendence, so they could have commemorated it.
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The Italian coin for 50 cents with Marcus Aurelius could also be offensive to Christians.
Things that happened centuries ago are usually seen in another prospective. If you ask the average citizen who are the worst criminals in the history he would probably say Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Mao, ecc... They are relatively recent.
Some Roman emperors, Gengis Khan, the European colonizers in America between 1500s and 1800s, the Catholic crusades against Muslims, the inquistion, the extermination of Native Americans, the Napoleon wars, the Vandea genocide during the French Revolution, etc... weren't better than them, they're just less recent.

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Old June 15th, 2013, 01:10 PM   #20613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
While the activity of white partisans was honourable in the struggle against the nazi-fascist oppression, I don't think that red partisans deserve the same recognition. One who fights against a dictatorial regime to impose another dictatorial regime isn't a peace hero, isn't it?
What's the difference? Red partisans wanted to kill white partisans because the wanted a communist regime, and white partisans wanted to kill red partisans because they didn't. They both wanted to impose their views with force.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 01:57 PM   #20614
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What's the difference? Red partisans wanted to kill white partisans because the wanted a communist regime, and white partisans wanted to kill red partisans because they didn't. They both wanted to impose their views with force.
The use of the military force is more "justifiable" when its aim is to defeat a dictatorship for democracy rather to replace the current dictatorship with another dictatorship.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 02:17 PM   #20615
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The use of the military force is more "justifiable" when its aim is to defeat a dictatorship for democracy rather to replace the current dictatorship with another dictatorship.
I don't agree. Force is force. But that's just me.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 04:09 PM   #20616
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I feel like being in the Slovenian forum, WWII debates are still hot there (no wonder the last WWII battles in Europe took place in Slovenia). I think it's important to emphasize that you don't agree with the dark side of whoever you support, but only with their positives.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 04:32 PM   #20617
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that 's the key problem, some people support mouvements or ideologies despite the dark side, justifying that with their eventual (yet questional) positive contributions.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 04:54 PM   #20618
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That's why I prefer writers, poets etc. on coins, banknotes ... They are usually a lot less controversial.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 04:58 PM   #20619
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Throghout the history there are very few episodes of despotic regimes that have been disposed pacifically.
Most of the times tyranny ends after a war or a violent revolution, if the anti-regime faction manage to win. And usually the winning part is celebrated ignoring eventual war crimes, because enphatizing them is seen as supportive to the old, hated, defunct regime.
After WWII Italians were expelled from Yugoslavia and Germans from Poland, Czechoslovakia and Kaliningrad oblast. Probably most of those folks forced to leave their hometowns had nothing to do with the nazi-fascism. But they were expelled because of their nationality. And the history forgot those victims for decades because they belong to the losing part. Considering them victims was seen as being supportive towards nazi-fascism.
We all agree that the invasions of Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968 by Soviets were crimes against humanity. But we don't think the same when the rival superpotence invaded other countries (Vietnam, Cuba, Nicaragua, Iraq, Afghanistan,...) to impose its political system, like Soviets did in their satellite states. That's because Americans won the cold war, thus their crimes are neglected.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 05:05 PM   #20620
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yes, that's why one should always keep critical distance to everything.
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