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Old July 4th, 2013, 10:05 PM   #20961
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
So basically life behind the iron curtain was a hell hole.
It was not that bad, actually. I spent all my childhood and almost all teen years in comunist Poland, which, in my opinion was the safest and most fascinating 'playground' possible. We, children of prl, had also perfectly known what discipline and good manners are. On contrary to nowadays yovng people. we'd paid respect to the elder, too. We weren't that spoilt as our west European counterparts either.
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Old July 4th, 2013, 10:10 PM   #20962
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Well, before Stalin crimes became more known and Western Europe was still recovering, it is estimated that roughly 120.000 Western Europeans moved on their own volition to communist countries (as in immigrating in search of a better life). A sizable number of Italians actually moved to Yugoslavia (not necessarily those expelled during the ethnic cleansing, but communists that thought they should help the efforts there).
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esodo_d...i_monfalconesi
Roughly 2,500 worker from Friuli-Venezia Giulia (mostly employed at Monfalcone and Trieste shipyards) moved to Yugoslavia between 1946 and 1948. They mostly worked in shipyards in Rijeka and Pula.
Some supported a communist movement that wanted to turn Trieste into the 7th Yugoslav federative republic.
When Tito broke diplomatic relationship with Stalin, the Italian communist party (PCI), whose leader, Palmiro Togliatti, was very close of Stalin, started to oppose Tito regime. Thus, Italians that emigrated in Yugoslavia were prosecuted by the Yugoslav regime. Some returned to Italy, other remained, other moved to Warsaw Pact countries.
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It was not that bad, actually. I spent all my childhood and almost all teen years in comunist Poland, which, in my opinion was the safest and most fascinating 'playground' possible. We, children of prl, had also perfectly known what discipline and good manners are. On contrary to nowadays yovng people. we'd paid respect to the elder, too. We weren't that spoilt as our west European counterparts either.
Those social changes happened in capitalistic countries too in the past decades.
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The best part is this: we often heard something like this "the iron curtain with guarding soldiers is built to defend us from poor imperialists who envy our communist paradise"
The official name of the Berlin wall was "antifascist protection barrier".
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Old July 4th, 2013, 10:19 PM   #20963
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Lol I speak 4 languages (I still don't consider that I speak Dutch fluently enough to count as a 5th) and I've lived in 4 countries.

My nationalities are Italian (father), Spanish (mother), Brazilian (mother)...
Cool. I'm international like that. Where did you grow up?
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Old July 4th, 2013, 10:21 PM   #20964
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It was not that bad, actually. I spent all my childhood and almost all teen years in comunist Poland, which, in my opinion was the safest and most fascinating 'playground' possible. We, children of prl, had also perfectly known what discipline and good manners are. On contrary to nowadays yovng people. we'd paid respect to the elder, too. We weren't that spoilt as our west European counterparts either.
I've heard that something that bothers most people is that crime rates went through the roof after the Berlin Wall. There used to be hardly any crime whatsoever...
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Old July 4th, 2013, 10:41 PM   #20965
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The official name of the Berlin wall was "antifascist protection barrier".


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Old July 4th, 2013, 10:41 PM   #20966
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Could people from Yugoslavia cross into Albania?
I think it was quite hard to get in.


Anyway, life in the Eastern Block was probably ok, if you got used to it.
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Old July 4th, 2013, 10:44 PM   #20967
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I've heard that something that bothers most people is that crime rates went through the roof after the Berlin Wall. There used to be hardly any crime whatsoever...
this is partially true, but in my opinion, as it has been already mentioned here, it is just something like delayed and accumulated social change.
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Old July 4th, 2013, 11:12 PM   #20968
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In communist Eastern Europe the base of the society was equality. OK, just as orwell wrote it, some were more equal than others, but basically, in everyday life, we all were equal.
It ment that every one had a job. Yes, many people had nothing to do in this job, or there were 16 people doing what 4 could have been done, but there was no unemployment. In Hungary, having no job, was a crime that time! On the other side, everyone got the same salary. Those, that worked hard, got no more than the lazy ones. Those, being skillful, working more efficient, got no more than the ones being heavy handed and working with a low efficiency. Equality, was the motto.
And, of course, this method had the impact that no one worked really hard. Why should have any? And in a nation where no one is working hard, where no one want to study more, no development is possible.
Nonetheless, safety was much better than nowadays. Every one had a job, every one had a salary, no need for additional money. And if you steal money, how could you use it? Buying a car? Western cars were impossible to be bought in Hungary. Building a house? Right, the government came and asked how you got the money for that - for sure you could not have it from a good salary, since salaries were more or less equal.

And the wind of change came. Equality is over.
For people that can work hard, that are skillful, that study more, it is favourable. For lazy people, it is not. Now they have a low salary, or no job at all. For uneducated people the situation now is far worse than in communism: they're unemployed now. They want go back to communism.
And good safety, too, is over. Lazy people steal instead of work. Having no job is not punished any more. And you can not trust police for a large share of police are criminals as well.
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Old July 4th, 2013, 11:16 PM   #20969
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Deindustrialization was probably the most important factor when it comes to crime, many people lost their jobs in relatively short period of time and of course there were new opportunities for crime. I think it was mostly '90 phenomenon when bars appeared in many windows or even the corridors of appartment buildings and you could hear about some organized crime groups with guns in the TV (although still it was unlikely that you meat such dangerous people in real life) but it's history now.
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Old July 4th, 2013, 11:34 PM   #20970
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We know too little to do any exact conclusions. Everything has its advantages and disadvantages.

But in case of communist regime we may say: Equality was based on the fact that everyone was equally poor. That was not good.

Yeah, current situation is not much better, but still is better. Obviously that depends on your age what influences your opinion. E.g. in early 60's my grandma had gotten a flat in the center of Bratislava she had to buy after the fall of communism. But the price for her was not based on market-price but 700 Eur!!!! Current market-price for that flat is approximately 150.000 Eur and young family has to take a loan for 30 years (corresponding to 417 Eur per month + interest rate) to have it. We may indeed say that communists were handing out the flats for free.

But in one breath I must admit, that our family had inherited a flat without having an adult member to populate it. Therefore the government just asked for the keys and gave it to another man. After the communism era the flat has been probably sold for non maket-price to another owner.

In spite of many disadvantages, I prefer to living in current era.
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Old July 4th, 2013, 11:42 PM   #20971
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The problem with low-skilled people is related to industrialization and automation. They greatly reduced the need for low-skilled menial jobs, from agriculture to industry and even services.

There were also all sorts of shortages, and things that didn't work, ration cards like in Poland etc. Even if you had money, you had not means to spend on nicer things because of waiting lists for items like cars. In some countris like Albania, there were waiting lists even for cutlery and, for a time, clothes.
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Old July 5th, 2013, 12:37 AM   #20972
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There were also all sorts of shortages, and things that didn't work, ration cards like in Poland etc. Even if you had money, you had not means to spend on nicer things because of waiting lists for items like cars.
In the movie Goodbye Lenin the East German woman says: "Wow, our car arrived after only 3 years!"

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Originally Posted by Attus View Post
In communist Eastern Europe the base of the society was equality. OK, just as orwell wrote it, some were more equal than others, but basically, in everyday life, we all were equal.
It ment that every one had a job. Yes, many people had nothing to do in this job, or there were 16 people doing what 4 could have been done, but there was no unemployment. In Hungary, having no job, was a crime that time! On the other side, everyone got the same salary. Those, that worked hard, got no more than the lazy ones. Those, being skillful, working more efficient, got no more than the ones being heavy handed and working with a low efficiency. Equality, was the motto.
And, of course, this method had the impact that no one worked really hard. Why should have any? And in a nation where no one is working hard, where no one want to study more, no development is possible.
Nonetheless, safety was much better than nowadays. Every one had a job, every one had a salary, no need for additional money. And if you steal money, how could you use it? Buying a car? Western cars were impossible to be bought in Hungary. Building a house? Right, the government came and asked how you got the money for that - for sure you could not have it from a good salary, since salaries were more or less equal.

And the wind of change came. Equality is over.
For people that can work hard, that are skillful, that study more, it is favourable. For lazy people, it is not. Now they have a low salary, or no job at all. For uneducated people the situation now is far worse than in communism: they're unemployed now. They want go back to communism.
And good safety, too, is over. Lazy people steal instead of work. Having no job is not punished any more. And you can not trust police for a large share of police are criminals as well.
With those arguments many leftists support the Cuban regime saying that poverty level, education, health care, children living conditions are much better in Cuba rather than in capitalistic Latin American countries. In this case is probably true since most of Latin America is very poor, but it wasn't the case of the pre-1989 Europe where all commie countries were behind free countries.

I think the failure of communist regimes is related to the fact that the self-determination and the private property are part of the human nature.
So, a regime that deprives men of the chance to chose their own career, accumulating money and buy whatever they want (in relation with their sisposable income, of course), cannot be imposed pacifically but only with the oppression. This is because most people would never accept to get rid of what they have or what they like to have for the sake of the community and, if free elections exist, they would vote against the communist party.
The main weapons used by commie governments were: limitation of freedom of speech and limitation of freedom of travel. This means that communist rulers recognized the fact that their regime was unpopular so they didn't allowed their citizen to defect. If they really thought that communism was a paradise, they wouldn't have set the iron curtain because "nobody would leave this paradise".
If everybody was freely allowed to leave commie countries, most of ambitious, educated and skilled people would have moved West and only poor, elderly, homeless and uneducated people that don't want to work hard would have remained in the East. In that way the economics of Eastern countries, without skilled labor, would have collapsed.

Another problem is that communist regimes (but also every sort of dictatorial regime) spend load of money for military expenses and leave the general population with hardly sufficient food.

Last edited by italystf; July 5th, 2013 at 12:43 AM.
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Old July 5th, 2013, 01:38 AM   #20973
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Well nothing in the World is completely black or white, in most cases is grey.


Didnt know about this
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Old July 5th, 2013, 02:01 AM   #20974
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Why do you think they built the Cultural Centre of European Space Technologies in Vitanje last year?


http://www.radioantena.si/img/Galler...08ee5375be.jpg
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Old July 5th, 2013, 02:15 AM   #20975
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Why do you think they built the Cultural Centre of European Space Technologies in Vitanje last year?
Yea i know about Herman Potočnik - Noordung, and his work, but i didnt know about Yugoslav space program.
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Old July 5th, 2013, 02:36 AM   #20976
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Yes, Slovenia can into space.
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Old July 5th, 2013, 02:49 AM   #20977
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Yes We Can!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=uX2cS8wvQHI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWS3yTqtapo

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Old July 5th, 2013, 08:47 AM   #20978
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The problem with low-skilled people is related to industrialization and automation. They greatly reduced the need for low-skilled menial jobs, from agriculture to industry and even services
Yes, it is true. But you must see that in Eastern Europe it broke in 1989-90 very quickly. In the 70's and 80's factories gave people a job, even if their work was not needed at all. In 1989 or '90 it was over and lots of undereducated people lost their job suddenly, in a very short period. A large part of them have not found a new job since then.
And now all of them say: In communism I had a job which I lost through the fall of communism, so let's get communism back!
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Old July 5th, 2013, 09:03 AM   #20979
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But after communism major western European and Japanese corporations have opened up plants in eastern Europe due to cheap labour. I know, because I used to collect and deliver car parts and mobile phones in Lithuania, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania and Slovenia.
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Old July 5th, 2013, 11:09 AM   #20980
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In communist Eastern Europe the base of the society was equality. OK, just as orwell wrote it, some were more equal than others, but basically, in everyday life, we all were equal.
It ment that every one had a job. Yes, many people had nothing to do in this job, or there were 16 people doing what 4 could have been done, but there was no unemployment. In Hungary, having no job, was a crime that time! On the other side, everyone got the same salary. Those, that worked hard, got no more than the lazy ones. Those, being skillful, working more efficient, got no more than the ones being heavy handed and working with a low efficiency. Equality, was the motto.
And, of course, this method had the impact that no one worked really hard. Why should have any? And in a nation where no one is working hard, where no one want to study more, no development is possible.
Nonetheless, safety was much better than nowadays. Every one had a job, every one had a salary, no need for additional money. And if you steal money, how could you use it? Buying a car? Western cars were impossible to be bought in Hungary. Building a house? Right, the government came and asked how you got the money for that - for sure you could not have it from a good salary, since salaries were more or less equal.

And the wind of change came. Equality is over.
For people that can work hard, that are skillful, that study more, it is favourable. For lazy people, it is not. Now they have a low salary, or no job at all. For uneducated people the situation now is far worse than in communism: they're unemployed now. They want go back to communism.
And good safety, too, is over. Lazy people steal instead of work. Having no job is not punished any more. And you can not trust police for a large share of police are criminals as well.
That you wrote is true for the stalinist Rákosi era (pre-1956), but nor for later.
1. In the Merkur shops you could order western cars.
2. There was wage differentialization. An electric engineer has a lot higher salary than a cleaner. Wages did differ company to company.
3. You could accumulate wealth by running small enterprises or doing 8+4(state+GMK) shifts on the price of self-exploitation.
4. You could spend that money on large houses, cars, fashion, hobby gardens, summer houses at Lake Balaton, etc...

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