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Old September 17th, 2013, 10:46 PM   #22001
Lum Lumi
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How is it "bullshit" for people to want self-determination? Particularly if they've already had an independent state that was partitioned due to some agreement. One can argue the relative merit of their demands, but to dismiss it as "bullshit" is to be short-sighted and, quite frankly, needlessly dismissive of other people's rights to free speech/thought and assembly.
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Old September 17th, 2013, 10:54 PM   #22002
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Trst can into freedoms from Italy again!
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Old September 17th, 2013, 10:54 PM   #22003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGL View Post
Like Catalonia right now. I'm sure that bullshit will cease after the current crisis is gone.
Or Basque countries. Or Scotland.

In 1954, instead, the whole population of Trieste was happily celebrating the reunification with Italy!
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old September 17th, 2013, 10:54 PM   #22004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lum Lumi View Post
How is it "bullshit" for people to want self-determination?
Yeah, let's all of us have self-determination! I want my apartment to be an independent nation. Spinozistan!
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Old September 17th, 2013, 10:58 PM   #22005
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What if your neighbours want to demolish their -stan? Your country will remain floating in air?
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Old September 17th, 2013, 11:00 PM   #22006
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What if your neighbours want to demolish their -stan? Your country will remain floating in air?
I live on the first floor. And host no terrorists. And got no oil, aside from olive oil.
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Old September 17th, 2013, 11:07 PM   #22007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lum Lumi View Post
How is it "bullshit" for people to want self-determination? Particularly if they've already had an independent state that was partitioned due to some agreement. One can argue the relative merit of their demands, but to dismiss it as "bullshit" is to be short-sighted and, quite frankly, needlessly dismissive of other people's rights to free speech/thought and assembly.
Because it's not an entity like Kosovo, Scotland, Catalonia, Kurdistan,... that has its own history, its own language, its own tradition.
It's a city that had always been related with the Italian (Venetian) sphere. They just exploited a beaurocratic bug to try to avoid Italian taxes.

Same thing with Padania, it never existed as historical-cultural region neither as political entity neither as geographical entity (Pianura Padana exists, but not Padania that includes also Alps and Appennins). It's only a wanna-be state created by a political movement that's very controversial because of its xenofobic and backward ideology and that has a lot less supporter than those it used to have.
There are never been historically a "Padanian folk", a "Padanian culture" or a "Padanian language".

Of course in a free country every different opinion it's allowed, except violence and racial hate.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old September 17th, 2013, 11:14 PM   #22008
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Interesting map: ethnic composition of Venezia Giulia in 1880:

Not the whole Istria was ethnically Italian, unlike most Italians now think. Fiume was about fifty-fifty Italians and Croats and around 30% of Trieste population was Slovenian.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old September 17th, 2013, 11:31 PM   #22009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Because it's not an entity like Kosovo, Scotland, Catalonia, Kurdistan,... that has its own history, its own language, its own tradition.
It's a city that had always been related with the Italian (Venetian) sphere. They just exploited a beaurocratic bug to try to avoid Italian taxes.

Same thing with Padania, it never existed as historical-cultural region neither as political entity neither as geographical entity (Pianura Padana exists, but not Padania that includes also Alps and Appennins). It's only a wanna-be state created by a political movement that's very controversial because of its xenofobic and backward ideology and that has a lot less supporter than those it used to have.
There are never been historically a "Padanian folk", a "Padanian culture" or a "Padanian language".

Of course in a free country every different opinion it's allowed, except violence and racial hate.
I think Lum Lumi was talking about Catalonia. Not that I'm taking a position on that or any other of these....
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Old September 17th, 2013, 11:37 PM   #22010
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There were Slovenes east of Poreč/Parenzo?
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Old September 18th, 2013, 12:53 AM   #22011
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What about Romanians?
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Old September 18th, 2013, 12:57 AM   #22012
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Yes, Istro-Romanians.
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Old September 18th, 2013, 12:58 AM   #22013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
What about Romanians?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istro-Romanians

That language it's virtually extinct now.

BTW, I had no idea about a former Italian community in Veglia\Krk (although I've been there). This island didn't became Italian after WWI.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old September 18th, 2013, 01:06 AM   #22014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
What if your neighbours want to demolish their -stan? Your country will remain floating in air?
It's interesting situation here because "stan" in Serbian means "apartment".
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Old September 18th, 2013, 01:13 AM   #22015
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0:43

Kjer se prepirata dva tretji dobiček ima (Where two are fighting a third gets the profit)

Nikola Tesla was Istro-Romanian ?
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Old September 18th, 2013, 01:29 AM   #22016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Interesting map: ethnic composition of Venezia Giulia in 1880:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...8ethnic%29.JPG
Not the whole Istria was ethnically Italian, unlike most Italians now think. Fiume was about fifty-fifty Italians and Croats and around 30% of Trieste population was Slovenian.
yes, looks accurate. I love my region for it's national diversity
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Old September 18th, 2013, 01:36 AM   #22017
Lum Lumi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Yeah, let's all of us have self-determination! I want my apartment to be an independent nation. Spinozistan!
I know you're trying to be humorous, but you've just made my point: if you can get others - including recognized states - to recognize your apartment as an independent state, then it's an independent state. It's not like places like San Marino or even the Vatican are much larger than some rich guy's bachelor pad. The point is the right to free speech, not that your apartment automatically qualifies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Because it's not an entity like Kosovo, Scotland, Catalonia, Kurdistan,... that has its own history, its own language, its own tradition.
It's a city that had always been related with the Italian (Venetian) sphere. They just exploited a beaurocratic bug to try to avoid Italian taxes.

Same thing with Padania, it never existed as historical-cultural region neither as political entity neither as geographical entity (Pianura Padana exists, but not Padania that includes also Alps and Appennins). It's only a wanna-be state created by a political movement that's very controversial because of its xenofobic and backward ideology and that has a lot less supporter than those it used to have.
There are never been historically a "Padanian folk", a "Padanian culture" or a "Padanian language".

Of course in a free country every different opinion it's allowed, except violence and racial hate.
I understand it's not quite separate or specific enough as a region to be given the kind of serious consideration others may have been given, but my point wasn't that it deserved such consideration, but that those people are allowed to want such a thing. Wether they get it, or are subsequently recognized is another thing. In the case of Trieste, more than likely - not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
I think Lum Lumi was talking about Catalonia. Not that I'm taking a position on that or any other of these....
I was talking about Trieste, but the same thing applies to Catalonia or any other region that may want to separate from a certain state. I'm not taking a position on whether they should be recognized; I'm merely arguing that those people have a right to protest and demand certain things as long as there's no hatred or violence against civilians involved. In any case, it's a complex topic so I'll bow out of this one from now on.
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Old September 18th, 2013, 01:38 AM   #22018
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Originally Posted by Alex_ZR View Post
It's interesting situation here because "stan" in Serbian means "apartment".
A country 'destroyed' because of an apartment .
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Old September 18th, 2013, 01:53 AM   #22019
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uh, I missed the previous page. funny stuff
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Old September 18th, 2013, 02:39 AM   #22020
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Quote:
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What about Romanians?
Anyway, even better are Megleno-Romanians in Greece. It means "foggy Romanians" in Slovenian.
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