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Old February 20th, 2014, 12:07 AM   #24261
DanielFigFoz
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Does anyone understand the map?

(Would anyone please translate it?)

Last edited by DanielFigFoz; February 20th, 2014 at 12:16 AM.
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Old February 20th, 2014, 12:35 AM   #24262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielFigFoz View Post
Does anyone understand the map?

(Would anyone please translate it?)
There is already translation in English, in small letters below.

I thought that Ukraine already had democratic revolution back in 2004 (so called "Orange revolution").
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Old February 20th, 2014, 12:39 AM   #24263
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I thought that Ukraine already had democratic revolution back in 2004 (so called "Orange revolution").
And there are forthcoming parliament elections AFAIK. At least, it may clarify the situation there. Violence is not a solution.
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Old February 20th, 2014, 12:44 AM   #24264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_ZR View Post
There is already translation in English, in small letters below.

I thought that Ukraine already had democratic revolution back in 2004 (so called "Orange revolution").
But the current president is pro-Russia and against the principes of the Orange revolution. The former president, pro-Europe and pro-democracy, is now in prison.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old February 20th, 2014, 12:49 AM   #24265
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But the current president is pro-Russia and against the principes of the Orange revolution. The former president, pro-Europe and pro-democracy, is now in prison.
You probably thought on Yulia Tymoshenko, former prime minister. She is in prison. Former president Viktor Yushchenko lost presidential elections in 2010 (when current president Yanukovych was elected).
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Old February 20th, 2014, 12:51 AM   #24266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_ZR View Post
There is already translation in English, in small letters below.

I thought that Ukraine already had democratic revolution back in 2004 (so called "Orange revolution").
So it is!
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Old February 20th, 2014, 01:49 AM   #24267
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But the current president is pro-Russia and against the principes of the Orange revolution. The former president, pro-Europe and pro-democracy, is now in prison.
It's like Egypt...

"down with the military dictatorship, we want democracy!"
(revolution and democracy arrives)
"down with democracy we want military dictatorship!"

Ukraine has just entered the third phase of this one Now for the students in the class please calculate using the dates the resonant frequency of this underdamped system
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Old February 20th, 2014, 02:23 AM   #24268
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Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
It's like Egypt...

"down with the military dictatorship, we want democracy!"
(revolution and democracy arrives)
"down with democracy we want military dictatorship!"

Ukraine has just entered the third phase of this one Now for the students in the class please calculate using the dates the resonant frequency of this underdamped system
Morsi's fondamentalist Islamic rule can hardly be definied "democracy", even if he was elected. A party who claim the superiority of a religion against others and discriminates women, non-believers, homosexuals, progressists, etc, it's by definition non-democratic.
Most young people who started riots against Mubarak wanted a Western-like democracy with human rights and so, not an Iran-like Islamic republic. Obviously also muslim extremists joined the protest because Mubarak regime was laicist and supported Israel and the USA.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old February 20th, 2014, 02:36 AM   #24269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
It's like Egypt...

"down with the military dictatorship, we want democracy!"
(revolution and democracy arrives)
"down with democracy we want military dictatorship!"

Ukraine has just entered the third phase of this one Now for the students in the class please calculate using the dates the resonant frequency of this underdamped system
Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Morsi's fondamentalist Islamic rule can hardly be definied "democracy", even if he was elected. A party who claim the superiority of a religion against others and discriminates women, non-believers, homosexuals, progressists, etc, it's by definition non-democratic.
Most young people who started riots against Mubarak wanted a Western-like democracy with human rights and so, not an Iran-like Islamic republic. Obviously also muslim extremists joined the protest because Mubarak regime was laicist and supported Israel and the USA.
By electing Morsi, Egypt also voted for a non-democratic country. Just like the case with Hitler in Germany. He got to power with democratic tools but later took away the democratic system. Egypt faught for a democratic world from a dictator and then hit the wall when the majority of the voters wished for a non-democratic rule...(I am using the phrase non-democratic since a country ruled by vision from a religion can not be democratic, since if you believe in your religion you probably do not see a reason to want something else.)

A big country like Ukraina should not be dependent on neither Russia nor EU.
I am surprised that they allowed russia to get that much Power in the country in the first place.
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Old February 20th, 2014, 02:58 AM   #24270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Morsi's fondamentalist Islamic rule can hardly be definied "democracy", even if he was elected. A party who claim the superiority of a religion against others and discriminates women, non-believers, homosexuals, progressists, etc, it's by definition non-democratic.
Most young people who started riots against Mubarak wanted a Western-like democracy with human rights and so, not an Iran-like Islamic republic. Obviously also muslim extremists joined the protest because Mubarak regime was laicist and supported Israel and the USA.
I know, and I agree with you. But, you must admit the situation is rather amusing for those of us lucky enough not to be living there

I also hope the Ukrainians to finally be able to live in a proper country without this kind of corrupt government (oligarchs running things etc etc) and hopefully find prosperity and freedom...
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Old February 20th, 2014, 03:13 AM   #24271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Festin View Post
A big country like Ukraina should not be dependent on neither Russia nor EU.
I am surprised that they allowed russia to get that much Power in the country in the first place.
Every country should have the right to autodetermine itself. Wether Ukraine will go with EU, Russia or stay neutral, it should be decided by Ukrainians themselves, not imposed by Russians, Europeans, Americans,...
Joining the EU will probably mean more freedom of speech and less corruption and oligarchs power (Eastern European countries entered between 2004 and 2013 had to improve A LOT of things), but a large share of the Ukrainian population is ethnically Russian so it's pretty obvious that they wanted to re-unite with their mother country, as nationalist ambitions usually come first in Europe since WWI.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old February 20th, 2014, 10:07 AM   #24272
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The situation in Ukraine is quite complicated.
- Unlike in many European nations, Eastern Ukraine is significantly more developed and more wealthy than Western part of the country. See the map HERE.
- Eastern Ukraine is dominantly ethnically Russian and the Western regions are thnically Ukrainian. See the map HERE.
- The most important political parties are not based on ideological, political ideas, like in the majority of European and North-American nations but ethnically. See the map of the last elections HERE.

The party "Batkivshchyna" is pro-Europe and is western-oriented, however, in Ukraine it basically means anti-Russian orientation. The Party of Regions (Partiya Regioniv) is for the wider autonomy of the regions in Ukraine, wich basically means wider independecy of the Russian speaking regions from the Ukrainian central government.

The current president, Viktor Yanukovich is ethnically Russian and comes from Party of Regions. The majority of current rebels are ethnically Ukrainians.
The current struggle, and actually the whole struggle of the recent ten years is not the fight "good against bad" but basically Eastern Ukraine against Western Ukraine.
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Old February 20th, 2014, 10:09 AM   #24273
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Why don't they just split into 2 countries, like Czech Republic and Slovakia did?
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Old February 20th, 2014, 10:44 AM   #24274
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Old February 20th, 2014, 10:52 AM   #24275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
Why don't they just split into 2 countries, like Czech Republic and Slovakia did?
Transnistria, Abkhasia, South Ossetia tried...
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Old February 20th, 2014, 11:45 AM   #24276
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Why don't they just split into 2 countries, like Czech Republic and Slovakia did?
Well, I think it would not be that easy. Ukraine is rather similar to Bosnia and Herzegovina than Czechoslovakia. De facto, CSR was prepared to split since 1969.
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Old February 20th, 2014, 12:10 PM   #24277
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Well, I think it would not be that easy. Ukraine is rather similar to Bosnia and Herzegovina than Czechoslovakia.
Yes, I agree.

The main difference between the ex-Czechoslovakia and the current Ukraine is that the Czech-Slovak border line has been defined several centuries ago (the historic Hungarian-German border) while there's no solid border between East and West Ukraine.
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Old February 20th, 2014, 01:30 PM   #24278
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If Ukraine will split in two countries, mass migrations would follow, since there are consistent Russian minorities in the West and consistent Ukrainian minorities in the East. There will be violent struggles in regions that are roughly fifty-fifty. It would be more easy if the two parts of the countries were almost ethnically homogeneous.
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Originally Posted by Attus View Post
Yes, I agree.

The main difference between the ex-Czechoslovakia and the current Ukraine is that the Czech-Slovak border line has been defined several centuries ago (the historic Hungarian-German border) while there's no solid border between East and West Ukraine.
You mean the historic Austrian-Hungarian border. The Austrian Empire was split in 1867 in the Austrian and Hungarian parts. Today's Czech Republic was part of Austria while Slovakia was part of Hungary. After WWI the two regions became parts of Czechoslovakia (that included also Western Ukraine, with Lvov). The separation returned to exist in 1939 when Czech Republic was annexed by Nazi Germany and Slovakia became independent (although its regime was fascist and pro-German).
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

Last edited by italystf; February 20th, 2014 at 01:38 PM.
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Old February 20th, 2014, 02:02 PM   #24279
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
You mean the historic Austrian-Hungarian border.
Exactly. However, Austria was part of the German Empire (actually called as Holy Roman Empire) until the Napoleonic wars. So the current CZ-SK border, the former Austrian-Hungarian border was the historic border between Hungary and Germany (i.e. the Holy Roman Empire).
See maps HERE and HERE.
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Old February 20th, 2014, 02:09 PM   #24280
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
After WWI the two regions became parts of Czechoslovakia (that included also Western Ukraine, with Lvov).
No. Lvov (Polish Lwów, German Lemberg, Ukrainian Lviv) was never a part of Czechoslovakia. The town, just like major parts of the current Ukraine, belonged to Poland between both world wars.
See map HERE.
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