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Old June 20th, 2014, 02:12 AM   #25881
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
It's really surprising now the word "negro", now derogatory, was commonly used in printed publications as late as in the 1950s (during Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks protests, few years before Kennedy presidency), in the same way we would write Afro-American today.
And this one doesn't even look like a racist publication, like it could be a KKK propaganda poster, but a text addressed to Afro-Americans to help them to "survive" in a openly racist society.
"negro"'s not so much derogatory as obsolete. The other n-word is the one that no one would ever dare use today (and that I can't bring myself to type out).

And it wasn't a racist publication, but a guide for African-Americans. I've heard of this before.


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1776 Declaration of Independence:

Reality:
Slavery until the 1860s, Indian wars until the 1890s, racial segregation until the 1960s, homosexuality prosecuted in some states until 2003.
PART of the reality, please.

We were way ahead of many European countries in many respects for much of that time. That was a declaration of ideals that took way too long to put into practice* but that some people, many people took seriously from the start. (I've been reading on Le Monde's forum in the last few days about a Roma boy lynched outside Paris. He was suspected of being a thief, but still. NO ONE (or almost) on that relatively-lefty forum seems to think that there's any problem with lynching; they're all debating whether he deserved it. If he weren't a Roma - and/or if it had happened in the U.S. - they'd all be yelling about the presumption of innocence.) I've said it before, and I'll say it again (and it'll probably be erased or at least censored): Europeans on the lookout for racism, homophobia and other forms of bigotry really don't need to go hunting for it across the Atlantic, or in the past.)

*Sort of like the Declaration of the Rights of Man in 1789, which didn't prevent a Terror in 1793. Or Vichy.
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Old June 20th, 2014, 08:56 AM   #25882
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Well, I think the issue here was not so much about racism but more about the institutionalization (hope this word exists) of it.
US and Europe have very different histories with immigration so they really can't be compared. In Italy, we never had segregation laws just because, until very recently, we didn't have immigration. Who knows what could have happened if we imported slaves from Africa in 18th century, too.
About the Roma: it is sad, but the fact that they live robbing and stealing is true. Very few of them chose a way of life that's compatible with our own. It's their own fault if we generalize and accuse some of them of stealing. I mean it's wrong, but I probably would have done the same.
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Old June 20th, 2014, 09:37 AM   #25883
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Well, I think the issue here was not so much about racism but more about the institutionalization (hope this word exists) of it.
US and Europe have very different histories with immigration so they really can't be compared. In Italy, we never had segregation laws just because, until very recently, we didn't have immigration. Who knows what could have happened if we imported slaves from Africa in 18th century, too.
The word "institutionalization" exists, but I've usually heard it with the meaning of "to put someone into a (mental) institution/hospital". Here the meaning is "to transform something into an institution". Maybe some native speaker could say if this second meaning works for such word

We've had segregation (racial) laws against Jews from 1938 to 1943 in Italy, during fascism. But they didn't target black people nd immigrants, and I agree with your analysis.
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Old June 20th, 2014, 11:20 AM   #25884
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We've had segregation (racial) laws against Jews from 1938 to 1943 in Italy, during fascism. But they didn't target black people nd immigrants, and I agree with your analysis.
If we have had a large black or muslim minority back in the 1930s, I doubt that Mussolini (as well Hitler and other collaborationist regimes, like Vichy France, the Independent State of Croatia, Hungary, Slovakia and Norway) and other fascist dictators), would have been nice with them.
They prosecuted Jews and Roma because they were the most consistent minority in Europe back then.

As for the fact that the USA started to protect human rights before Europe, I don't think that any European country, except maybe Tsarist Russia, had slavery legal within its borders until the 1860s (although many countries still practiced colonial slavery as late as WWII, with France and Portugal continuing it later).
Racial discrimination became a taboo everywhere in Europe after the denazification in the middle 1940s and even homosexuality became an acceptable fact after 1968 movements. It's difficult for an European to imagine, that, for example in 1960, an American citizen from Alabama, couldn't study at university because of its skin colour. Or that in the early 2000s Texans shouldn't talk loud about their sexual practices, not because of privacy but to avoid facing legal prosecutions. Or that many conservatives still oppose teaching some scientific topics (evolutionism, astronomy,...) at school because they are against the Bible. And maybe those conservatives also criticize islam because "they are all fundamentalists".
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old June 20th, 2014, 11:36 AM   #25885
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I know where this conversation is heading.
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Old June 20th, 2014, 12:22 PM   #25886
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Well, I think the issue here was not so much about racism but more about the institutionalization (hope this word exists) of it.
US and Europe have very different histories with immigration so they really can't be compared. In Italy, we never had segregation laws just because, until very recently, we didn't have immigration. Who knows what could have happened if we imported slaves from Africa in 18th century, too.
About the Roma: it is sad, but the fact that they live robbing and stealing is true. Very few of them chose a way of life that's compatible with our own. It's their own fault if we generalize and accuse some of them of stealing. I mean it's wrong, but I probably would have done the same.
Roma issue is definitely not in line with racism. That statement would be either wrong or stupid.

I am not affraid of Roma just because of their skin colour. Whoever has seen the Roma in reality would agree, Roma don't have significantly darker skin colour than common tanned white. The problem is how they act. I mean, the normal, well dressed, good bahaved and educated Roma girl looks like tanned white. On the other hand, there are also Romas, who are whiter than me. Moreover, Roma people are the same race as white people - Caucasian, so whoever talks about racism in terms of Roma people is stupid, or is black or asian.

The another issue is the term "Negro". It is terminus-technicus, Negroid race is something used by scientist, demographers or ethographers. What is wrong on that notion.
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Old June 20th, 2014, 12:43 PM   #25887
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Roma issue is definitely not in line with racism. That statement would be either wrong or stupid.
Racism has always been more associated with the behavior of people, more than their skin colour. Clichés are associated with every ethnicity (Slavs are criminals, Italians are lazy and mafiosi, Irishmen are always drunk).

Aside from few historical periods, blacks were segregated on account of their behaviour, alleged or real, more than because of their skin colour.
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Old June 20th, 2014, 01:13 PM   #25888
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There's a difference between racism and xenophobia.
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Old June 20th, 2014, 01:50 PM   #25889
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The another issue is the term "Negro". It is terminus-technicus
And a candy:

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Old June 20th, 2014, 02:24 PM   #25890
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There's Serbian brand of candies of the same name:



and things went wrong in Canada

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Old June 20th, 2014, 02:34 PM   #25891
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50 Cent also got confused about it while he was visiting Budapest.


(you may see a familiar name among the comments )

The thing is that this was named after an Italian confectioner Pietro Negro who invented the candy while living in Budapest in the 1920s.
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Old June 20th, 2014, 02:35 PM   #25892
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Educated Canadian journalist, who wrote Yugoslavia in 2004.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old June 20th, 2014, 02:37 PM   #25893
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Educated Canadian journalist, who wrote Yugoslavia in 2004.
Yes, in 2004 it should be "Serbia and Montenegro". But Canada is far away and they don't care...
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Old June 20th, 2014, 02:51 PM   #25894
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Maybe it still said "Made in Yugoslavia".
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Old June 20th, 2014, 03:05 PM   #25895
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So he should be arrested for giving away expired candies to children on Halloween.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old June 20th, 2014, 03:15 PM   #25896
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Racists, racists everywhere I look:-D

Btw. I've read something about apartheid. That was racism. But refer name of the candies as racist. That is stupid.
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Old June 20th, 2014, 03:17 PM   #25897
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Educated... journalist
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Old June 20th, 2014, 03:23 PM   #25898
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Racists, racists everywhere I look:-D

Btw. I've read something about apartheid. That was racism. But refer name of the candies as racist. That is stupid.
Well an Italian guy living in Hungary simply couldn't have known that almost a century later his family name will be considered offensive in another continent. It's like how Hinduism and Buddhism have been using the swastika symbol for thousands of years - but it got a very different meaning in the Western world during the last century.
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Old June 20th, 2014, 03:58 PM   #25899
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I don't see those candies as racist... because in Spanish 'negro' is the word for 'black', the color.
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Old June 20th, 2014, 04:06 PM   #25900
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The country of Montenegro.
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