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Old June 23rd, 2014, 04:00 AM   #25961
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But really Penns, what is the proper word for black people?
In the U.S.: "black" or "African-American." (There was a bit of a campaign, on the part of some activists, 20-odd years ago to get people to say "African-American" instead of "black," but asking people to drop a one-syllable word and replace it with seven.... We're back into "language just doesn't work that way" territory. One of the ways it does work, on of the things it does do, is change. You really don't hear or see "negro" here any more, and even when I was younger (I'm 50 ) it sounded old-fashioned - only people older than me used it. Whether it's because it's too similar to "the other N-word" I don't know. No one says "colored" any more either. There are organizations called the United Negro College Fund and the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People which have been in existence for a century or more and haven't "updated" their names, but apart from that....
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Old June 23rd, 2014, 04:14 AM   #25962
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Listen, a stinky and loud white man is sitting in the bus. He is annoying and I ask him to leave the bus. Pretty much common situation, agreed?

Now imagine the similar situation - a stinky and loud Roma man is sitting in the bus. He is annoying and I ask him to leave the bus. Should I blame myself for being xenophobist or racist? It is completely ridiculous.

Me, personally, but majority of people from Eastern Europe as well, don't hate Roma people because they are Roma people. But hate certain individuals who behave very bad. If a Roma individual tries to fix the reputation and is raletively well educated and good behaved to apply for a job, he or she will surely get the same chance as the non-Roma individual.

There is no aparheid at all as some non-governmential organisations try to prove. I finished my job as a teacher yesterday and I had a bunch of non-white pupils: some Asians, one Muslim and two Romas.

If they were good, were given good marks, if not, were given bad marks as well as the others were. Am I racist? Should have I given them only good marks because they were different?

Because the Roma situation is pretty nebulous. If a society tries to treat them equally, it is racism, because they are different, you can't treat them similarly. Well ok then, society tries to treat them differently, but.... what hell do you think, it is racism! How can you treat them differently? Ok, treat them equally.... on and on...

What would you do, if a criminal Roma moved in next to you? Would you respect his "culture" and let him disturb your life or would you treat him as a regular citizen of United States and call for you rights given (I assume) by Constitution?

To be honest, Slovaks are shitty nation and I am totally aware it despite I have lot of friends and family amongst and fiancee as well. And I will never blame anyone who tell that Slovaks are lazy, rude, stupid and stealers. I would try to convince him/her they are not and would try to fix the reputation instead.
I was talking about the specific example of beating up someone you suspect of being a thief and leaving him for dead: if it's okay to do that when the suspect is Roma but not when he isn't, that's xenophobic. If beating up someone JUST because he's Roma whether he's committed a crime or not is okay, that's xenophobic. And if you tolerate or apologize those sorts of attitudes in your own societies while throwing the label "racist" or "xenophobic" at others, that's hypocrisy.

Treat people like people. Person commits a crime, punish him or her accordingly. Don't make special allowances for him OR make his punishment more severe because of his race or ethnicity or "culture." Don't ban them from your schools and refuse to hire them then blame them for not assimilating.... (What is this "criminal Roma moving next door" thing? If he's really a criminal, why isn't he in jail? If he's served his time, why can't he live wherever he wants. Unless you're prepared to check on the police records of even non-Roma potential neighbors.)
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Old June 23rd, 2014, 09:11 AM   #25963
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What is this "criminal Roma moving next door" thing? If he's really a criminal, why isn't he in jail?
Very good question... You don't even know what a good question you had.
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Old June 23rd, 2014, 10:06 AM   #25964
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
I was talking about the specific example of beating up someone you suspect of being a thief and leaving him for dead: if it's okay to do that when the suspect is Roma but not when he isn't, that's xenophobic. If beating up someone JUST because he's Roma whether he's committed a crime or not is okay, that's xenophobic. And if you tolerate or apologize those sorts of attitudes in your own societies while throwing the label "racist" or "xenophobic" at others, that's hypocrisy.

Treat people like people. Person commits a crime, punish him or her accordingly. Don't make special allowances for him OR make his punishment more severe because of his race or ethnicity or "culture." Don't ban them from your schools and refuse to hire them then blame them for not assimilating.... (What is this "criminal Roma moving next door" thing? If he's really a criminal, why isn't he in jail? If he's served his time, why can't he live wherever he wants. Unless you're prepared to check on the police records of even non-Roma potential neighbors.)
This is a very complex issue and sadly many people fail to stay away from racist or semi-racist ideologies AND not to jump into some über-tolerant fact-ignoring BS at the same time.

First of all the main problem is that the Roma are the biggest losers of the fall of socialism. Many of them were unskilled factory workers or miners - but those factories and mines were shut down, not to mention the collective farms which also used to employ them. That was a big blow and many of them still couldn't recover from it.

Like I mentioned before there are various Roma groups in Hungary. Those called Romungros* or Hungarian-Roma are so well integrated into our society (rumour has it that a certain high-ranking politician also has some Roma blood in his veins ) that sometimes you don't even notice that they are Roma. Sadly this is not the case with members from some other groups - ususally they are the ones you see in foreign reports. Now the question is that we should ask both from them and the rest of society: If many Roma people are assimilated then why isn't this the case with all of them?

What I want is a country where murdering 6 people just because they were Roma** cannot happen. But on the other hand I don't want to read about Roma people lynching and killing a non-Roma teacher*** or beating ambulance workers either. I don't want to see the far-right openly marching in the streets but I don't want to hear some "liberal" politician saying that a Romanian handball player kinda deserved being stabbed in the heart by a few Roma criminals**** because "He must've said something racist" either.

The sad thing is that even Western countries can't deal with this issue - and the lynching in France is a tragic sign of that.

*note that the term Romungro is sometimes used to describe children of Roma-non-Roma couples
**The murders were committed between 2008-2009 in the eastern parts of the country
***Happened in 2006 in the village of Olaszliszka
****Happened in 2009 in the town of Veszprém
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Old June 23rd, 2014, 11:07 AM   #25965
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I would also say that the phenomena is influenced by the closeness of the sea. More water, more evaporation, more water vapor in the atmosphere, more refraction.
It is not that straightforward. The twilight is not based on atmospheric refraction (=light deviates from the straight line because of travelling through several air layers of different density) but on reflection of the light at the upper layers of the atmosphere. The darkest periods of the twilight are caused by the light scattering at the altitudes the water vapor cannot reach.

The rays reflected over the sea may hit the ground 1000+ kilometers away.

Some of the rays may be a result from multiple reflections (air then ground the air then ground then air etc). The reflexivity of the ground is much bigger that that of the sea. This compensates the increased refraction at the sea.

The local weather has the strongest impact on the phenomena: The thicker the clouds are, the darker it is.
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Old June 23rd, 2014, 11:28 AM   #25966
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
I was talking about the specific example of beating up someone you suspect of being a thief and leaving him for dead: if it's okay to do that when the suspect is Roma but not when he isn't, that's xenophobic. If beating up someone JUST because he's Roma whether he's committed a crime or not is okay, that's xenophobic. And if you tolerate or apologize those sorts of attitudes in your own societies while throwing the label "racist" or "xenophobic" at others, that's hypocrisy.

Treat people like people. Person commits a crime, punish him or her accordingly. Don't make special allowances for him OR make his punishment more severe because of his race or ethnicity or "culture." Don't ban them from your schools and refuse to hire them then blame them for not assimilating.... (What is this "criminal Roma moving next door" thing? If he's really a criminal, why isn't he in jail? If he's served his time, why can't he live wherever he wants. Unless you're prepared to check on the police records of even non-Roma potential neighbors.)
Okay, we are in "Highways and Autobahns section". So imagine an unexpected sharp curve on motorway. Every second driver crashes a car there. What would you do? Of course you would put a sign "warning! sharp curve ahead" there. But it actually means, that you don't believe in other drievers' skills. But the experience told you, the half of the drives is not responsible. We can say your statement is prejudice.

And now, transform this issue to the people. You have a group of people, the majority of which is irresponsible, weak educated, criminals, stealers, etc. Somewhere inside you would not believe in them too.

I must admit that I am suspicious against Roma people somewhere inside me and I am not proud of it. But experiences are experiences. However I don't consider myself racist, because I always give them a chance. And it predominantly worked out.

People are getting more and more angry, because they have to work hard to pay back their loans for living and this minority is given everything for free. Moreover they destroy everything (of course I am angry, it was built from the taxes I've paid).

This has nothing to do with culture (google "Lunix IX")


They refuses to pay for electricity, for landfill services, for water, etc. When a city decided to cut the basic services off, non-govermential organizations started to talk about racism.

This is "Blue house" (google "Modrý dom v Petržalke") in Bratislava. Was built in 1999. Note that plastic windows and termo-isolating façade was not standard in Slovakia that time. Roma people moved there - note how it looks after 15 years! It was built from public resources. They destroy it. So they will be given another new house built from public resources. I just want to stress that people who live there was given second and third chance. If a non-Roma encounter unfavourable situation in his/her life, become homeless.





As for the criminal neighbour. I didn't mean it in a juridical way. Just imagine a neighbour who create a landfill on his/her yard, neighbour who shit on your lawn, etc. And also imagine police, who is afraid of non-govermential organization so they will do nothing. And also imagine the market price of your property. No chance to sell it. That is what I talking about.

Once again, I don't talk about the a priori situation, but about the experience. Of course it is not right to blame your neighbours before they move it. Don't get me wrong, but the Roma issue will never be solved unless they are punished same way as others are. If I don't pay for electricity, I will be cut off. If a Roma family don't pay for electricity, they should be cut as well. If I damage a public property, I will be fined or go to jail. If a Roma individual damage a public property, he/she should be fined or go to jail too. I don't see anything racist in this statement.

And I think we should go back to the off-topic topic.
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Last edited by volodaaaa; June 23rd, 2014 at 11:34 AM.
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Old June 23rd, 2014, 01:33 PM   #25967
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First of all the main problem is that the Roma are the biggest losers of the fall of socialism.
So now your gypsies arrived here, why dont they beg in their home countries ?

In Sweden the first gypsies arrived in 1512.

The most prominent gypsies here are the finnish Kale, they wear traditional clothes. Most of them are making a living out of dealing with used cars.

After about 2006 the Balkan-gypsies arrived. Today all major swedish cities are full of romapeople begging.


I never give gypsies money


This guy I gave 4SEK for entertaining in the street. He's a playing the xylophone. Buskers are a pleasant element in the cityscape.
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Old June 23rd, 2014, 01:51 PM   #25968
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In Sweden the first gypsies arrived in 1512.
Well the first Roma groups arrived in Hungary in the 14th-15th century - these are the ones who were assimilated in the 18th century. The other groups which are not yet perfectly integrated came in the 19th and 20th centuries.

As for all the other countries please check this map:



Quote:
Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post
So now your gypsies arrived here, why dont they beg in their home countries ?
Because they get will get more money there. It's that simple. The new Roma immigrants you see in Western Europe nowadays are mostly from Romania and Bulgaria (some come from other CEE countries), the two EU members with the lowest GDP/capita figures.
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Old June 23rd, 2014, 02:01 PM   #25969
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[QUOTE="NordikNerd;115116866"]



I never give gypsies money
/QUOTE]

No, you film them as if they're some animals in a zoo. Which is a sick thing to do...
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Old June 23rd, 2014, 02:08 PM   #25970
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Well the first Roma groups arrived in Hungary in the 14th-15th century - these are the ones who were assimilated in the 18th century. The other groups which are not yet perfectly integrated came in the 19th and 20th centuries.
From where came the other groups in the 19th and 20th centuries ? Seems like the roma is a part of hungarian culture now especially as gyspy musicians like violinists Roby Lakatos. He is assimilated.

We had a famous accordion player and composer "Calle Jularbo" He composed many traditional folk songs considered to be an important part of the swedish cultural heritage, promoted by the nationalists.

Most people today dont know that he was a gypsy but if you look at photos of him you clearly see that was not of swedish origin allthough he had a swedish name.
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Old June 23rd, 2014, 02:23 PM   #25971
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I like those Gypsy buskers... Found one on the ferry in Greece. He played three instruments at once and it sounded pretty much good.
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Old June 23rd, 2014, 02:27 PM   #25972
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Maybe also the blatant liberals will realize finally that this is not about racism, and not even about xenophobia, but we have a real problem here in Europe which needs to be solved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f6SXeQKIys

(i mean, either this, or poor Rosie and her girlfriend in this video are racist bastards)

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Old June 23rd, 2014, 02:41 PM   #25973
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Just to show you the diverse world of the Roma here's some info about their groups (Note that they mostly have the Roman Catholic faith with the exception of the Gábor Roma who are mostly Adventists and some who recently came from Romania are Romanian Orthodox)

Main group: Romungró
Subgroup: Hungarian-Roma
Language: Hungarian
They constitute roughly 2/3 of the Hungarian Roma population, scattered across the country


Margit Bangó, a famous Romungró singer

Subgroup: Carpathian-Roma
Language: Hungarian and the Carpathian dialect of the Romani language
They constitute roughly 10% of the Hungarian Roma population, they mostly live in Nógrád county and Budapest

Main group: Oláh Roma
Subgroups: 10-12 mostly defined by their dialects
Language: as I just mentioned it they use 10-12 dialects of the Oláh Romani language e.g. Lovári.
They are the second biggest Roma group, scattered across the country. They came to Hungary from Wallachia in the 19th century.


Romengo, an Oláh roma music band

Main group: Beás
Subgroups: Árgyelán, Muncsán, Ticsán
Language: an archaic form of Romanian
They are the third biggest Roma group, they also came from present-day Romania, they live mostly in Southern Transdanubia and the northern parts of the Great Plain


Old Beás woman

Main group
: Romanian-Roma
Language: Romanian
There are very few of them in Hungary, they mostly live in Békés county near the Romanian border but some of them came to Budapest.

Main group: Sinti
Language: Carpathian dialect of the Romani language mixed with some German words
There are very few of them in Hungary

Main group: Gábor Roma
Language: Romanian, Hungarian and Romani dialects
They mostly live in Transylvania but lately started appearing in Hungary too


Gábor Roma man wearing his traditional hat and mustache
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Old June 23rd, 2014, 02:58 PM   #25974
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First of all the main problem is that the Roma are the biggest losers of the fall of socialism. Many of them were unskilled factory workers or miners - but those factories and mines were shut down, not to mention the collective farms which also used to employ them. That was a big blow and many of them still couldn't recover from it.
About socialism and Roma culture.

Socialism had one big civilizing effect. It required everyone to be employed or prove income or be jailed. It was quite difficult to live just from petty criminality and small private income from by-work. Socialism also took much more control about what the children do and whether they visit school and it made parents feel the responsibility for it. Another consequence was that it made nomadic way of life impossible. It was harsh and it was one of those things that made socialism unfit for being a free society.

With socialism gone, all this became personal responsibility. The Roma culture has rather different understanding of the concept of personal responsibility and personal freedom than the mainstream culture in European countries. This causes that the Roma people are put in a very difficult position in the European countries if they want to keep their culture. Socialism took the personal responsibility completely away together with the freedom. The Roma people were forced to behave conform for the time being. With socialism gone, the majority had to learn to take personal responsibility again. It became much harder for the Roma people to learn it.

The tradition of nomadic way of life never got the chance to adapt gradually to the new age as well due to the socialism abrupt stop to it, but the patterns of it that are still in the Roma people culture are incompatible with the accommodation they were forced to start to use. With the repressive factor gone, this became more pronounced.

About Gypsies, Roma, and differences between WE and EE.

The word Gypsy in English is rather more related to a certain kind of behavior than to the actual Roma people as ethnicity in WE. In most EE the word is used interchangeable (although not officially used anymore - media, authorities, etc.) with the word Roma although having a negative taste to it. The word Roma is promoted and officially used for the ethnicity.

Most people in WE are imagining g(G)ypsies or rather pikeys when talking about Roma. Pikeys/gypsies are a socioeconomic group and not an ethnicity. They could be compared to the caravan trash in the USA, but they also represent the Bohemian lifestyle. Yes, they are closely connected to the Roma people and the Bohemian nickname comes from the fact that the Roma people first appeared in France in the middle ages coming from then Bohemia which gave them the name. The point is that gypsies (in WE), pikeys, Bohemians don't represent fairly the Roma ethnicity, because they are mixed with the original population in the WE. And their culture is a mixture of the Roma culture and various other European cultures. With the opened borders in the last 20 years, the WE is just being again exposed to the Roma ethnicity and culture on a larger scale.

About the experience driven rejection of the Roma people.

I would not dare to say that the people in EE are more xenophobic than the people from WE. Does it mean that there is no discrimination against the Roma people? No. There most certainly is a discrimination. The discrimination however stems from personal experiences. The reasons for why the majority has negative experiences are not that important for the individuals when they make their decisions (i.e. because the Roma minority socioeconomic starting position or their culture or other factors). It is stereotyping though and it is not fair to those that don't cause any trouble. But hey, WE is full of stereotyping. Another thing is that the Roma culture is partly not compatible with the majority culture, which naturally drives negative experiences. The problem is hardly to become solved should the Roma majority not modify their culture.
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Old June 23rd, 2014, 03:18 PM   #25975
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Just slightly of topic, the mother of all Summer-(dance)-Hits has been created! You must love the mockery!



Based on the basic mix of:
Saxophone
Random Spanish Lyrics
Accordeon
Dance Beat
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Old June 23rd, 2014, 04:26 PM   #25976
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Just slightly of topic, the mother of all Summer-(dance)-Hits has been created! You must love the mockery!


Based on the basic mix of:
Saxophone
Random Spanish Lyrics
Accordeon
Dance Beat
This is an off-topic thread in purpose anyway.

Gypsies and city-names-that-sound-funny-in-other-languages are not the exclusive topics of this thread
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Old June 23rd, 2014, 05:40 PM   #25977
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No, you film them as if they're some animals in a zoo. Which is a sick thing to do...
How horrible, someone is using their right to film or photograph whatever they want.
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Old June 23rd, 2014, 05:53 PM   #25978
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Is the Swedish spoken in Finland very different from Swedish in Sweden?
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Old June 23rd, 2014, 06:06 PM   #25979
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Is the Swedish spoken in Finland very different from Swedish in Sweden?
Yes. It's sounds different and is a bit more old fashioned, they use some other words sometimes.

I saw this program about volontary danish soldiers fighting for the sake of Finland in the finnish-russian winter war in 1939, the danish soldiers told that it was easier to understand the finnish swedish because of the distinct pronounciation.
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Old June 23rd, 2014, 06:33 PM   #25980
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How horrible, someone is using their right to film or photograph whatever they want.
Still, I'm not sure photographing people you don't know to present them as an anthropological curiosity is, well, quite nice. There are countries (at least one) that ban Google Street View on the grounds that showing the exterior of people's houses is an invasion of privacy. I personally don't agree with that, but that shows that the sentiment is out there. And people on this forum routinely obscure people's license plate numbers. If photographing a house or a car would be an invasion of privacy, surely photographing the actual person would be. Over here, the Amish generally ask tourists not to take pictures of them because their religion prohibits being photographed (the same ban on "images" that also shows up in stricter forms of Judaism and Islam); would you respect that?
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