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Old June 23rd, 2014, 10:38 PM   #26001
cinxxx
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One time in Germany, a guy asked me to delete a photo, because he appeared in it. I didn't, but I blurred his head, I had no other choice to catch that building because the dude was sitting on the stairs of it...


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Old June 23rd, 2014, 11:19 PM   #26002
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In Hungary making such photos is clearly forbidden. And it is not only publishing which is forbbiden, but making the photo as well.
Edit: it's for the 'gipsy' photos of Voloda.
I took the photos from newspaper:-) cheap excuse:-D
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Old June 24th, 2014, 12:23 AM   #26003
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Maybe also the blatant liberals will realize finally that this is not about racism, and not even about xenophobia, but we have a real problem here in Europe which needs to be solved
I'm a social democrat, I don't have any issues with racism and so on, but the issue of the Roma is something that must be solved.

In my opinion - the big mistake of the post WW2 settlement was not to form a Roma state. It wouldn't have been popular, but carving a Roma state out of a small part of eastern Slovakia, southern Ukraine and northern Romania might have made a lot of sense. They would have been free to pursue their own policies in line with their social attitudes - and crucially would have provided them with a homeland.

In Poland, there was quite a well publicised case where a gypsy camp in Wroclaw was torn down by the authorities and the occupants evicted. Amnesty International screamed and cried about it, but when some Polish people asked AI if they would consider letting the poor Roma stay in their plush London offices, they were met with silence. The hypocrisy was sickening, especially as AI was using it to somehow push the agenda that Poland had a backwards attitude.

I fear that if the EU doesn't wake up and start looking at a serious solution, the Roma are going to suffer at the hands of ordinary Europeans at some point. I'm a liberal, but it doesn't take a genius to work out that anything like Lunik IX in Western Europe could be the breaking point for many.

In my opinion, the Roma community has to start taking responsibility for their own people. Lunik IX is an absolute disaster, but it only got that way because the community was unwilling to take responsibility. When some elements were stripping the buildings, why didn't the rest of them put a stop to it?
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Old June 24th, 2014, 01:09 AM   #26004
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I'm a social democrat, I don't have any issues with racism and so on, but the issue of the Roma is something that must be solved.
I'm always a little scared hearing word "solved" in regards to social issue. Firstly it's impossible, and... to try, well, it becomes Godwin point (you admit, he tried!)

Just maybe enforce rules of theft more strictly and reduce welfare payments, that seems enough to make it just a moderate annoyance instead of a big one... without killing anybody
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In my opinion, the Roma community has to start taking responsibility for their own people. Lunik IX is an absolute disaster, but it only got that way because the community was unwilling to take responsibility. When some elements were stripping the buildings, why didn't the rest of them put a stop to it?
Because it is public property (socialism). If it belongs to all, it belongs to none, and then, gets trashed. Even in USA this happened when someone had great idea to build free apartments for poor people. Almost (all?) of them now have been imploded with dynamite. Property like a residence only works when it is held privately, the government only needs to condo-ize the panelaky and it would be fine.

Last edited by Kanadzie; June 24th, 2014 at 01:15 AM.
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Old June 24th, 2014, 01:35 AM   #26005
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Breathtaking Bay of Kotor, Montenegro


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Old June 24th, 2014, 01:46 AM   #26006
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An efficient solution could be removing children from families who force them to live in favelas, with terrible hygienic conditions and teach them to beg and steal instead to study. Most developed countries already have laws to remove children from parents who don't take care of them properly, should it be a taboo to apply them also to minorities?
Come on, these realities are unacceptable in 21th century EU! It looks like the worst slum of Rio de Janeiro, Kolkata or Lagos.

Nobody hates Roma just because they're Roma but because most of them behave unacceptably. It would be the same if a group of people with the same ethnicity of the majority of the country where they live starts to behave in that way.

What does, the average (not criminal, normally socialized) let's say, Italian, German, French, Japanese, American, Polish, Romanian, Brazilian, etc... guy have in common? They probably like having a normal family, educated children, a secure job, a comfortable house, a secure life far away from troubles. If someone normal fails to have one or more of these things, he will look and struggle for them.
So, if someone, who has the change to get a stable job, a normal house, send children to school,... happily refuse this "normal life" and choose to became an outlaw with relations only with people similar to him and at expenses of collectivity, it's difficult to talk about integration.
I'm all to give financial subsides to poor people, regardeless their ethnicity, but many Roma have enough money (made with begging, stealing, financial aids from municipalities and some occasional jobs) to abandon their lifestyle, became presentable and integrate in the society. Look at those kitch houses in Romania, that aren't certainly cheap. But most of them simply don't want to integrate, even if they are given a chance.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old June 24th, 2014, 02:02 AM   #26007
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Because it is public property (socialism). If it belongs to all, it belongs to none, and then, gets trashed. Even in USA this happened when someone had great idea to build free apartments for poor people. Almost (all?) of them now have been imploded with dynamite. Property like a residence only works when it is held privately, the government only needs to condo-ize the panelaky and it would be fine.
In most developed countries there are municipal houses for low-income people (although they aren't given for free, but for an affordable rent). However they look like normal block of flats, with not that much decay and are regularily maintained by the municipal company. Many low-income families are made of normal respectable people, only with a not too high income\family size ratio. They probably don't like to sh*t in the plate they eat, since they attribuite a value to the amenity of their place and don't want to ruin it. Law enforcement also plays its role, as people are less likely to commit vandalism if they fear sanctions.

It seems that Roma people couldn't care less about aestethic and tidyness, they only value money. So, why keep your windows panes if you can sell them and replace them with plastic foil? Why not sell your bathroom furniture if you can use a bucket and have a shower outdoor when it rains? Why bother to walk to the nearest dumpster with your heavy bag when the garden outside your door can be used as a dumpster?
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old June 24th, 2014, 02:41 AM   #26008
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In Canada we have a few, but they are usually in pretty nasty condition and lots of crime there.... not Lunik IX level, but probably the worst in the whole city area. The by-far worst example would be the "Downtown Eastside" in Vancouver. The government has spent billions of dollars to house people in squalor, it is just a seething repository of human misery

But valuing money is important. If you paid 100 Euro for the window, you won't take it out and sell it for 10 Euro, but if you had the whole place for free (or less than true market value), it isn't such crazy idea. Instead of hoping for miracles, we can just speak the right language, the one we all understand!

Anyway also as aside I really like the name "Lunik IX", it reminds me of "Riegel V" or some other kind of tribe on foreign planet like from Star Trek
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Old June 24th, 2014, 03:27 AM   #26009
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We were talking about World Cup scheduling the other day. It strikes me that if FIFA were really interested in giving soccer* a shot in the arm in North America, they'd schedule some games to be on in prime time, at least on weekdays. Up through yesterday, the last game of the day was ending before 8 p.m. Eastern time (earlier farther west); this week they're done by 6. The country where the Cup's being played is located in a part of the world where that would be totally reasonable. I know they can't please everyone, but there are, or were, enough Western Hemisphere countries playing that they could schedule games involving them in the evening, I'd think....

Actually, I suppose this is the point I was already making...what's new is it occurred to me they (FIFA, the MLS) are missing an opportunity to promote the game in North America.



*At this point, I will suggest to our English and Australian friends that an English-speaking country that's actually still in this thing has a right to call the game whatever it wants. :-)
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Old June 24th, 2014, 03:32 AM   #26010
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FIFA is more interested in taking petrodollar bribes
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Old June 24th, 2014, 03:35 AM   #26011
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There was speculation last week about holding the 2022 one here, God help us, if Qatar fell through. Don't know if there was anything to that....
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Old June 24th, 2014, 03:22 PM   #26012
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Breathtaking Bay of Kotor, Montenegro


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You have nice car Seat Leon,am i right ?
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Old June 24th, 2014, 03:31 PM   #26013
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In Canada we have a few, but they are usually in pretty nasty condition and lots of crime there.... not Lunik IX level, but probably the worst in the whole city area. The by-far worst example would be the "Downtown Eastside" in Vancouver. The government has spent billions of dollars to house people in squalor, it is just a seething repository of human misery
Wow, and I remember that few years ago Vancouver got ranked the 1st most liveable city in the world.
However in such cases it's not the government that houses people in squalor. Initially those are normal flats (for the years they were built). Their tenants reduce them in squalor.

I think urban planning should always choose gentrification instead of segregation. It's better to build houses of different levels mixed each other.
If a large group of "problematic people"(*) is scattered across a city it would never create a lawless ghetto and can be better controlled.
Imagine a 10-flats block. 9 flats are occupied by normal people, one by problematic people who create a lot of troubles like thefts, vandalism, graffiti, littering, drug dealing,... Inhabitants of other 9 flats would report them to the police, so they can be evicted, and eventually arrested, well before the building get dilapidated.
If a large group of problematic people is concentred in a small place, it become a ghetto where the law isn't enforced, normal people fear to go, nobody would ever open a business,... It also become difficult to catch single responsibles of criminal acts and punish them, if the whole community lives outside laws.

(*)absolutuely unrelated with ethnicity or income, just with actual behaviour
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old June 24th, 2014, 03:39 PM   #26014
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I think urban planning should always choose gentrification instead of segregation. It's better to build houses of different levels mixed each other.
If a large group of "problematic people"(*) is scattered across a city it would never create a lawless ghetto and can be better controlled.
Imagine a 10-flats block. 9 flats are occupied by normal people, one by problematic people who create a lot of troubles like thefts, vandalism, graffiti, littering, drug dealing,... Inhabitants of other 9 flats would report them to the police, so they can be evicted, and eventually arrested, well before the building get dilapidated.
If a large group of problematic people is concentred in a small place, it become a ghetto where the law isn't enforced, normal people fear to go, nobody would ever open a business,... It also become difficult to catch single responsibles of criminal acts and punish them, if the whole community lives outside laws.

(*)absolutuely unrelated with ethnicity or income, just with actual behaviour
I can agree with this. Imagine if you are a child growing up in a ghetto like Lunik IX. All you see during the first years of your life is crime, poverty, joblessness, low hygene standards, etc. There are barely any positive examples around you. And even if you are lucky and get out of there it's very hard to change those attitudes and live a normal life.
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Old June 24th, 2014, 03:46 PM   #26015
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I think urban planning should always choose gentrification instead of segregation. It's better to build houses of different levels mixed each other.
If a large group of "problematic people"(*) is scattered across a city it would never create a lawless ghetto and can be better controlled.
Imagine a 10-flats block. 9 flats are occupied by normal people, one by problematic people who create a lot of troubles like thefts, vandalism, graffiti, littering, drug dealing,... Inhabitants of other 9 flats would report them to the police, so they can be evicted, and eventually arrested, well before the building get dilapidated.
It is certainly better to mix high income houses with low income houses. I would not put my faith into reporting and repression though. It is rather the better, motivating, sphere, positive example and lack of social aggregation of the problem makers that might keep the neighborhood livable. Otherwise, you will face following problems:

The reporting won't get the problem resolved many times, the problem makers won't change their behavior, when you report them, they might actually threaten you. They won't get arrested either though, because the police will say that they did not do anything that serious to be arrested and convicted.

The high income people will thus see no other solution than to move away.

The high income houses will become unattractive for high income people.

The whole neighborhood might fall back.

If the problem makers are not arrested, but would be removed from the house. They would need to be placed somewhere else (at least in the countries that prevent people become homeless). That "else" place would become a problem neighborhood.
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Old June 24th, 2014, 03:55 PM   #26016
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Wow, and I remember that few years ago Vancouver got ranked the 1st most liveable city in the world.
Liveable cities rankings are overrated. Many are only liveable if you can afford it. Many of the high-ranking liveable cities have exorbitant housing prices that only favors the wealthy and the 'incumbents' (those who bought their houses decades ago for much lower prices).

By the way, is it livable or liveable? Apparently both are possible.
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Old June 24th, 2014, 03:59 PM   #26017
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You have nice car Seat Leon,am i right ?
Yes. Thanks
I already drove over 22000 km with it and I have it only for a year...
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Old June 24th, 2014, 04:06 PM   #26018
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Because it is public property (socialism). If it belongs to all, it belongs to none, and then, gets trashed. Even in USA this happened when someone had great idea to build free apartments for poor people. Almost (all?) of them now have been imploded with dynamite. Property like a residence only works when it is held privately, the government only needs to condo-ize the panelaky and it would be fine.
There are not so many public owned housings in the Czech Republic left. Most were privatized, sold or they are owned by the cooperative made by the inhabitants. Of those left, they are almost always owned by the municipalities. They are never free. When we have it about the people with the lowest incomes, or jobless, the rent they paid to the municipality in fact comes directly from various benefits they get.

However, there is structural difference (generalizing of course) in how the Roma people care about those houses. This in return causes lack of investment and renovation by the municipalities. This is a cultural problem. Even if you would make them owners of those flats, it would not improve the thing, because you would create just another sort of entitlement feeling for a new flat once the last one becomes unlivable. Similar sort of entitlement is at the core of the current problem with the rented flats. I would say that there is a difference pattern by those of the Roma community that had to buy or build their own house.

Now, in many places a new sort of business emerged. When the municipality moves them out of the flats, either because they don't pay, or because they destroy it etc... there emerged private "residences" that are small flats of very poor quality, privately owned, where the renting is paid on daily or weekly bases. The private owners make sure that the occupants pay their rent (which is mostly directly covered by social benefits) and the houses have so poor quality that they don't have to care about the damage. Let's say it is their know how how they keep the houses in tact and collect the rent. The important thing is however, that the rent is mostly 2-3x higher than in a alternative normal housing, and it is all covered by the social benefits. Thus the money goes right from the government into the pockets of those private residences owners, without having any influence on the quality of the housing those socially weakest live in. I don't know the details, but basically the higher the rent, the more the government has to pay them on the benefits to cover their housing expenses.

A municipally owned housing which would be able to make sure that the houses are not being destroyed would be cheaper and would improve the quality of their lives much more.
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Old June 24th, 2014, 04:10 PM   #26019
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He is very same as the new Clio.
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Old June 24th, 2014, 04:12 PM   #26020
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Liveable cities rankings are overrated. Many are only liveable if you can afford it. Many of the high-ranking liveable cities have exorbitant housing prices that only favors the wealthy and the 'incumbents' (those who bought their houses decades ago for much lower prices).

By the way, is it livable or liveable? Apparently both are possible.
I was going to say I preferred "liveable" but my spell-check underlined it. No one's infallible. Maybe that's a British spelling. (My reason for preferring it with the E is that without, it looks as if the I should be pronounced long. But I guess I stand corrected. self-)
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