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Old December 14th, 2014, 07:42 PM   #29421
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Like we say in Slovenia, "They are fighting for donkey's shadow."
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Old December 14th, 2014, 07:54 PM   #29422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
The definition of watershed is explained in details in that Wikipedia article, which, by the way, states that there is no consensus among authors about its eastern path. Being myself no geographer, the picture you posted is as good as the definition on wikipedia, with the slight difference that wikipedia can be corrected in real time if wrong... your thoughts can't.
That picture comes from wiki on the Alpine watershed...
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Old December 14th, 2014, 08:09 PM   #29423
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Quote:
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Like we say in Slovenia, "They are fighting for donkey's shadow."
Actually borders of peninsulas and other geographic regions are a serious matter among geographers. If you're not interested in geography, then it's of course donkey's shadow for you. But I agree that this isn't an appropriate thread for having lengthy discussions about an "Italian geographic region".

Next: borders of the Balkans.
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Old December 14th, 2014, 08:32 PM   #29424
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Quote:
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That picture comes from wiki on the Alpine watershed...
Main Alpine watershed goes all the way to Hungary... I think it is apparent that we are talking about different things.
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Old December 14th, 2014, 10:42 PM   #29425
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My last note on this issue:

Geopolitics is about geographic context of politics. So, Cold war is the essential topic of geopolitics. Also, the current clashes between Russia and the rest of the world is the subject of geopolitics. Geopolicy is basically the foreign country strategy. Russian geopolicy is often referred as strange and unclear now (for example).

Italystf might have had historical geography or political geography in his mind. I know him (from this forum) and I am pretty sure he though about it in friend manner. On the other hand if you join the notion of "Italian geographic area" with geopolicy, it might sound very inappropriate especially for neighbouring counties members. I am pretty sure, the "Italian geographic area" (call it whatever you want) is meant to be "Italian cultural area" or "Area of the Italian influence". Rather the latter one.

Imagine a German talking about Poland as part of German geographic area in geopolitical context. It could turn out to be very disturbing for some people (but German cultural area is something, everyone would agree to). Once again, I know and fully respect, that this term is being taught at Italian schools. Each country interprets history in different ways and it affects geography as well. Some parts of geographic knowledge from different countries is alike, given by the conditions (e.g. basins), while some are unclear and even geographers within one institute can't agree on it (Is Caspian sea a lake or a sea?).

I study geography on PhD. level in the last grade. Believe me, I know what I am talking about. It is not something like "Slovak geography", it is about the whole strictly elaborated theory of geography based on American (and British) School. Spatial paradigm that has been still valid since early '50s (Fred Shaffer, Michael Bunge, Edward Ullman, Peter Hall, etc.).

The surface of Earth is inconceivably complex. It is impossible to create a homogeneous region in all aspects. Therefore you can only take account of some components. The more components you take account of, the less homogeneous region you can get. Therefore geographers do only regions based on some (one, two) components (like pedological maps, basins, mountains). There has been many strives for creating something called "total region" (utterly different from adjacent ones), but nobody succeed so far. Therefore regions with adjective "geographic" still remain only hypothesis.

Of course we have some purpose-built regions like countries, counties, districts, municipalities that are based rather on political decisions, history and purpose than geography. Or notions for laymen.

Actually I've tried to explain Verso, that although "Italian geographic area" sounds inexpertly, it does not exclude the existence of region that is based on geographical properties and exactly fits its extent. Because I believe that Italian geographic area has its own sense, just the name is generalised for average people (which is fully okay - e.g nobody uses The Commonwealth of Australia or United States of Mexico in daily speech).

I have not come here to start a flamewar. I came here to clarify the useless clash and say, that each one has right in certain point of view.

Hope, things are now a little bit clear. We can continue discussing Balkan boundaries
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Old December 14th, 2014, 11:03 PM   #29426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
Italystf might have had historical geography or political geography in his mind. I know him (from this forum) and I am pretty sure he though about it in friend manner. On the other hand if you join the notion of "Italian geographic area" with geopolicy, it might sound very inappropriate especially for neighbouring counties members. I am pretty sure, the "Italian geographic area" (call it whatever you want) is meant to be "Italian cultural area" or "Area of the Italian influence". Rather the latter one.

Imagine a German talking about Poland as part of German geographic area in geopolitical context. It could turn out to be very disturbing for some people (but German cultural area is something, everyone would agree to). Once again, I know and fully respect, that this term is being taught at Italian schools. Each country interprets history in different ways and it affects geography as well. Some parts of geographic knowledge from different countries is alike, given by the conditions (e.g. basins), while some are unclear and even geographers within one institute can't agree on it (Is Caspian sea a lake or a sea?).
Italian geographical area has nothing to do with Italian cultural area, since it includes people from different languages (Italian, German, French, Slovenian, Croatian, Maltese,...). It's a merely geographical (morphologic) definition.
D-PL border: nowadays is also a physical border (Oder and Neisse rivers) so no controversies there.
About lake vs sea, the Aral Sea is called Lago d'Aral (lago=lake) in Italian sources.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old December 14th, 2014, 11:42 PM   #29427
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After this long discussion I conclude: I must drive over the Livigno Pass. Once I drove from Tirano to St. Moritz, but I haven't been to Livigno.
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Old December 15th, 2014, 12:25 AM   #29428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Italian geographical area has nothing to do with Italian cultural area, since it includes people from different languages (Italian, German, French, Slovenian, Croatian, Maltese,...). It's a merely geographical (morphologic) definition.
D-PL border: nowadays is also a physical border (Oder and Neisse rivers) so no controversies there.
About lake vs sea, the Aral Sea is called Lago d'Aral (lago=lake) in Italian sources.
Because it meets all the properties that lakes generally do But you can't say it is not sea, because it is damn Aral Sea
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Old December 15th, 2014, 01:05 AM   #29429
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After this long discussion I conclude: I must drive over the Livigno Pass. Once I drove from Tirano to St. Moritz, but I haven't been to Livigno.
Dont forget to tank the gas in Livigno.
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Old December 15th, 2014, 01:16 PM   #29430
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Dont forget to tank the gas in Livigno.
And also alchool, tobacco (if you smoke) and electronics... And don't use Munt la Schera tunnel, they charge a ridiculous toll.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old December 15th, 2014, 01:56 PM   #29431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
(lago=lake)
Same in Spanish. However we call that almosy dry lake 'Mar de Aral' i.e. Aral Sea.

About the Caspian Sea, it is indeed a lake, the largest by far (IIRC about 5.5 times Lake Superior, which is the second largest lake). It's so large that is called a sea, and even I read somewhere that is... an ocean!
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Old December 15th, 2014, 02:02 PM   #29432
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https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=897910593577221
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Old December 15th, 2014, 02:25 PM   #29433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
And don't use Munt la Schera tunnel, they charge a ridiculous toll.
I didn't know about this. So Livigno is really in the middle of nowhere. If you wanna get to the rest of Italy or Poschiavo (CH), you have to drive over a high mountain pass (Foscagno Pass 2,291 m) or pay for the Munt la Schera Tunnel, if you wanna get to Zernez (CH).
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Old December 15th, 2014, 03:08 PM   #29434
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Quote:
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I didn't know about this. So Livigno is really in the middle of nowhere. If you wanna get to the rest of Italy or Poschiavo (CH), you have to drive over a high mountain pass (Foscagno Pass 2,291 m) or pay for the Munt la Schera Tunnel, if you wanna get to Zernez (CH).
For a car (both ways) currently is:
From 8am to 8pm: 32€\38CFH (37€\44CFH on Saturdays)
From 8pm to 8am: 33,5€\40CFH (38,5€\46CFH on Saturdays)
There are discounts for residents and frequent users.
https://www.livigno.eu/pdf/generali/...rno2014_15.pdf
They made Livigno a duty-free area just because is really in the middle of nowhere. Until 1914 it wasn't even accessible by road and until 1952 the road remained close during the winter and the town was cut off from the rest of the world for half year.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old December 15th, 2014, 06:27 PM   #29435
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at this comic!


http://9gag.com/gag/anXrmBb
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Old December 15th, 2014, 06:30 PM   #29436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
For a car (both ways) currently is:
From 8am to 8pm: 32€\38CFH (37€\44CFH on Saturdays)
From 8pm to 8am: 33,5€\40CFH (38,5€\46CFH on Saturdays)
There are discounts for residents and frequent users.
https://www.livigno.eu/pdf/generali/...rno2014_15.pdf
They made Livigno a duty-free area just because is really in the middle of nowhere. Until 1914 it wasn't even accessible by road and until 1952 the road remained close during the winter and the town was cut off from the rest of the world for half year.
Tolls are usually lower at night, but here it's even higher.
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Old December 15th, 2014, 06:49 PM   #29437
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If I remember correctly they opened the La Schera tunnel at nights only recently...
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Old December 15th, 2014, 06:51 PM   #29438
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And also alchool, tobacco (if you smoke) and electronics... And don't use Munt la Schera tunnel, they charge a ridiculous toll.
Yeah, all you save on the gas you pay in that tunnel. .

But it was nice around there.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 01:07 AM   #29439
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A Croat drove his Ferrari into a lake east of Villach:



http://www.worldcarfans.com/11412138...ake-in-austria
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Old December 16th, 2014, 08:34 AM   #29440
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Apparently, no physical laws were included in price
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