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Old January 28th, 2015, 02:37 PM   #30301
italystf
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Originally Posted by DanielFigFoz View Post
Taking into account the fuel just for the trip, not including general maintenance and such, going by car is much cheaper.
You have to pay general maintenace also if you commute to work with PT, because the average adult also need a car for shopping, leisure activities, social life, etc... It doens't mean that one should always move by car, many times PT, cycling and walking are more convenient (let alone eco-fiendly), but not having a car available (at least one per household) is a strong limitation to the individual freedom: it means the impossibility to travel at night when PT is scarce, to go to isolated places in the countryside, to carry bulky and heavy items,... Not having a car is also a strong limitation to access the job market.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 28th, 2015, 02:57 PM   #30302
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But the travel time will become much more unfavorable if your destination and/or origin isn't near a railway station. I have colleagues who commute 70 kilometers by public transport. The first 5 km from home to the railway station by bus takes 30 minutes, while the next 65 km station-to-station travel time is about 45 minutes.

That is also why public transport is not competitive with driving. Over 90% of driving are trips where the travel time difference with public transport is very large. In the Netherlands the share of car trips, where the travel time with public transport is not more than 1.5 times longer, is only 2-3%.
Public transport has good chances in two travel categories:
- Intercity travel, i.w. travelling between city centers. E.g. Amsterdam city center -> Utrecht city center. Comfortable, you can read a book or a newspaper, competitive in travel time. That's why there is a service in every 15 minutes(!) between Amsterdam Centraal and Utrecht Centraal, using double decker trans.
- Suburban commuting. It has quite a low share in the Netherlands because many workplaces are in city skirts instead of city centers. But in and around cities like Frankfurt, Munich, and especially such giant cities like London or Paris, a very great amount of people take public transport for daily commuting. Frankfurt, for example, would collapse without an effective public transport.
In every other traffic segments, public transport will never have a shar over 2%.
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Old January 28th, 2015, 03:03 PM   #30303
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And actually that's why I can not understand people that say "Car is better" or "Public transport is better". I can not accept any of these opinions.
Both of them have their own roles. I would never suggest to drive from Cologne center to Frankfurt center, but I would never suggest to take the train from Bad Münstereifel to Bad Neuenahr.
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Old January 28th, 2015, 03:10 PM   #30304
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
You have to pay general maintenace also if you commute to work with PT, because the average adult also need a car for shopping, leisure activities, social life, etc... It doens't mean that one should always move by car, many times PT, cycling and walking are more convenient (let alone eco-fiendly), but not having a car available (at least one per household) is a strong limitation to the individual freedom: it means the impossibility to travel at night when PT is scarce, to go to isolated places in the countryside, to carry bulky and heavy items,... Not having a car is also a strong limitation to access the job market.
Yeah, I am aware of all that, I'm talking about the trip that I take quite a lot that I mentioned earlier (from home to university).
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Old January 28th, 2015, 03:14 PM   #30305
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The share of travel to and from city centers out of all is often overestimated. Despite massive public transport usage in large British and German cities, the car share of all travel is still 85% in those countries. Of course, this is very different locally, but overall driving is a significant majority in European countries.

I also believe public transport has its own audience that uses it well, but it is often used as a tool in politics to suggest it will help reduce congestion. Case studies in the Netherlands found out that nearly all travelers on new rail infrastructure are either shifting from other public transport, or are new travelers. They attract almost no car drivers. The same goes for 'transit-oriented development'. The study found that only 5% of public transport travelers to transit-oriented developments were former car drivers.

An example: the zuidtak near Amsterdam attracted large numbers of travelers, but only 3% of them formerly used a car.
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Old January 28th, 2015, 03:36 PM   #30306
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Of course, this is very different locally, but overall driving is a significant majority in European countries.
I have currently no time for searching for statistical data, but as far as I can remember Hungary has the lowest share of driving in the EU, and even there is it over 70%.
Of course it has financial reasons, too, many people in Eastern Europe use the public transport because it is cheap (it is heavily subsidized).
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Old January 28th, 2015, 03:42 PM   #30307
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I like not having to drive to work.

It's a little cold for biking for me now, but I take the train to Gaimersheim.
I live only few minutes walking from the Ingolstadt train station, and from there, the train does 10 minutes to Gaimersheim.
From there I have to walk 2 km, around 25 minutes. So around 40 minutes in total from my front door. A single ticket costs 2,20€.

Using buses, I would need at least 50 minutes. A single ticket costs 2,20€.
By car it depends, can be 15 minutes, can be 30 minutes, or more...
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Old January 28th, 2015, 03:54 PM   #30308
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Originally Posted by DanielFigFoz View Post
Taking into account the fuel just for the trip, not including general maintenance and such, going by car is much cheaper.
Are you talking in general or in your case? Because I spend 1.5€ per day to go to work by public transport... I can't quantify but I doubt I would spend less by car, 20 km per day through the city, full of traffic lights and stops...
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Old January 28th, 2015, 03:59 PM   #30309
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I am quite disappointed how railway transport in Europe is expensive. Still considering a weekend long trip in Maribor, but trains cost way too much.

Example: Vienna - Maribor by EC train for two adults adds up to 104 €
Vienna - Maribor by car is 47 € including Austrian weekly vignette.
Have you visited Ljubljana already? Anyway, Austria is terrible. Going there by train from Slovenia is cheap only until Graz, Klagenfurt and Villach (and not because it's closer, but because it's a special offer). Going to Vienna or Salzburg is very expensive.
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Old January 28th, 2015, 04:03 PM   #30310
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At current fuel prices, it costs about € 0.07 per kilometer to drive my car. Of course, there is road tax, insurance and maintenance. But most people still own a car, since commuting to work is only about 30% of all personal travel.

I bike to work. It's close by (2.5 km) and driving would require waiting for several traffic signals, so it's not really faster either. And they charge € 4 per day for parking, so unless it is very bad weather, I bike to work. I think I used my car only 3 or 4 times last year.

In fact, my employer also has a kilometer allowance for biking. I get about € 10 per month.
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Old January 28th, 2015, 08:20 PM   #30311
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Just wanted to leave this here:
GE Pro seems to be free from now on, used to be something like $400.
Link with more information
It doesn't offer much for the standard user, but a few things are definitely nice:
  • measure tool: measuring the circumference and surface of a polygon; drawing a circle gives you the radius and surface
  • HD screenshots, up to 4k, independent of the window size and your computers resolution
that's all
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Old January 28th, 2015, 08:27 PM   #30312
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Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Have you visited Ljubljana already? Anyway, Austria is terrible. Going there by train from Slovenia is cheap only until Graz, Klagenfurt and Villach (and not because it's closer, but because it's a special offer). Going to Vienna or Salzburg is very expensive.
don't you have those sparschiene offers? i remember them as kinda affordable.
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Old January 28th, 2015, 09:04 PM   #30313
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don't you have those sparschiene offers? i remember them as kinda affordable.
Yeah, but there's a limited number of them. And it exists only for Vienna, but not for Salzburg. Return trip Ljubljana-Salzburg-Ljubljana costs €110.
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Old January 28th, 2015, 10:14 PM   #30314
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Yeah, but there's a limited number of them. And it exists only for Vienna, but not for Salzburg. Return trip Ljubljana-Salzburg-Ljubljana costs €110.
you can buy sparschiene for München for 29€ per direction and simply exit at Salzburg
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Old January 28th, 2015, 11:22 PM   #30315
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you can buy sparschiene for München for 29€ per direction and simply exit at Salzburg
You're right, I didn't think of that. The Sˇ website doesn't mention it, only by Munich (and it's actually called Smart, not SparSchiene).
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Old January 28th, 2015, 11:24 PM   #30316
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I usually drive to work/studies. I rarely now take the public transports. I had very bad experience with them when commuting everyday standing for 45 minutes on the train, and for another similar duration like in a sardine box on the buses in Switzerland. In turn, in Warsaw, walking on deep snow and waiting several minutes on blazing cold, the "fully filled" buses with others connections in the same condition didn't helped me to like them either. After that, how can we promote such "nauseous" mean of transport so much ?
On the other extreme, I prefer by far being stuck on traffic jams and have "my vital and private space" listening to the music very loudly, and make "detours" after work .

When I was in elementary school I did ride often my bike. After, in high school, I had a scooter, very funny to drive though . Now, I do ride a bike or walk when the weather is nice, but I mostly drive. Like the large streets of Warsaw, even though they are often congested . I hate being "dependent" of some schedules or connections . I like to ride on my own: foot, bike, motorcycle, car, etc. Even if a do like sometime to have a train ride, or take the plane.

Last edited by John Maynard; January 28th, 2015 at 11:43 PM.
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Old January 29th, 2015, 12:59 AM   #30317
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Same as I
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Old January 29th, 2015, 01:34 AM   #30318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Are you talking in general or in your case? Because I spend 1.5€ per day to go to work by public transport... I can't quantify but I doubt I would spend less by car, 20 km per day through the city, full of traffic lights and stops...
Just my case. I am talking about a long trip that I might go a couple of months without doing, then I might do it several times in a month. The fuel for the trip is about £35-40, it's more like £80 by train, and twice as long.
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Old January 29th, 2015, 03:28 AM   #30319
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I don't know. I don't think they want to keep it a secret (there's no reason, also because road numbers appear on signs), probably they just didn't bother to put the list online, thinking nobody would read it. I think one can try to write an e-mail to the provincial administration.
Or whichever clerk was supposed to put it on line has twice as much to do as he or she has time for.
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Old January 29th, 2015, 03:30 AM   #30320
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How do you measure depth in an article?
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It's starting to remind me of measuring whether your country has too many motorways.
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