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Old June 18th, 2015, 03:50 AM   #31901
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hofburg View Post
I don't know why there should even exist GMO in the first place. people have been eating normal plants for years and there were no problems with that.
Humans have been practicing selective breeding of plants and animals for milenia. It started with agriculture, when mankind stopped being exclusively hunter-gatherers. It is not something new, or a novelty. The difference is that now we can do the selection on a lab instead of relying on years and years of field trial-and-errors reproduction.

Every major food staple and livestock has been extensively selected based on genetic characteristics - only that our ancestors didn't know that picking the tallest sugar cane, the most productive maize or wheat, or the fattest cow was related to that beautiful thing called DNA.
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Old June 18th, 2015, 04:30 AM   #31902
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
Haha, I love Voltaire, even though I'm from the few arpents of snow

I think GMO issue is overblown in Europe, there isn't any logic behind. Anyhow, we know the long-term effects, in America we've been eating that 20 - 30 years already and no problem
If there was some scientific logic behind the fear, e.g. a particular GMO which causes the vegetable to have large quantity of chemical X and chemical X is carcinogenic, ah it makes sense.
But most GMO is just adding some anti-bug feature from another edible plant to some other edible plant, so that the farmer doesn't need to spray so much pesticide.

US states actually have been very aggressive on car emissions. Especially on exhaust pollution (generally always much stricter than Europe, but now very similar) and they control CO2 also (via fuel-economy rules). But the US norm for CO2 isn't so hard as the European (less crazy IMO )


Oh nice, I didn't see that you where from Canada It could explain our differences in term of point of views about what we talked...

Well there is absolutly no study that proved their harmlessness in a long term use, and just saying "in America we've been eating that 20 - 30 years already and no problem" is not really scientific... In the same time the incidence of cancers in population have never been so high (and we didn't know so much about who are the carcinogens products/substances) and also these last years we have seen a first decrease in life expectancy in the US... So for me things are not going so well...

In fact the "anti-bug feature" is probably more a "marketing tool" (and you seems to believe it) for GMOs than their real use, as 80% of GMO used are resistant to glyphosate (Roundup) so you can put as much of this herbicide on the plants, it won't harm them. So wonderfull! You shouldn't forget that Monsanto is at first a chemical producer, their activities got no lik with food and seeds...

And this is not the only problem of GMO, there is also the fact that this is "patenting life" and giving in hands of big companies such Monsanto (who got 90% of GMOs in the world) the power to control what we are going to eat. One of the most important thing in our life, eating. The is also problems with the fact that farmers can't reuse the seeds from GMO, they are totally dependent of these GMO companies. For me this is an unbelievable non-sens.


I won't say that, excepting California (who still not a good example), other states doesn't seems to have done so much (I traveled in US and Canada two years ago and saw by myself ). I saw that Obama planed to reduce by 30% the CO2 emisions of US by 2030. It's great to give an objective, bu who believe it when the country is massively producing the cheap but so much poluting shale gas, and still using massively the so dirty but also cheap, coal...
In Canada you are also not a great example by exploiting the devastating oilsands...

In Europe the big majority of countries (except UK) banned the exploitation of shale gas, a great exemple that we care more about environment (at least in a local point of view) than in having cheap energy...

Also US is highlighting the "flexfuel" vehicles "biofuels", but these are solving nothing as studies have proved that the carbon bilan of making this "biofuel" is worse than using oil because of all the oil that is used for production, and fertilizers, etc...

Here in Europe we are in are on the good way even if we are still using so much oil, and some of the countries use coal... but about cars EU is pushing very hard cars makers to build fuel efficient cars. For example in 2021 the average CO2 emisions of all the cars sold from a same car maker will have to be inferior than 95 g/km... They are pushing much pressure on cars builders to respect that.

The fear that this king of regulations could disappear for the benefit of a transatlantic market seems based.

(An interesting link : http://www.croplifeamerica.org/news/...ide-Regulation (Europeans rules could be blocking 40% of US agricultural exports as they are now, and these big US corporations are waiting from TAFTA/TTIP to change these regulations...))
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Last edited by winnipeg; June 18th, 2015 at 04:57 AM.
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Old June 18th, 2015, 04:45 AM   #31903
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Humans have been practicing selective breeding of plants and animals for milenia. It started with agriculture, when mankind stopped being exclusively hunter-gatherers. It is not something new, or a novelty. The difference is that now we can do the selection on a lab instead of relying on years and years of field trial-and-errors reproduction.

Every major food staple and livestock has been extensively selected based on genetic characteristics - only that our ancestors didn't know that picking the tallest sugar cane, the most productive maize or wheat, or the fattest cow was related to that beautiful thing called DNA.
But it's no more the action of the nature, it's no more a selection, it's now a modification. There is certainly no chance that these modifications could happen without DNA modifications, only by "selection". What we've done during the past centuries it to "mary" two varieties of plants together so we can have some advantages from the two varieties (for example : a variety of apples more resistant to bad weather and a variety of biggers apples so we can have big apples who are resistant to bad weather...). This could happen naturaly...

GMO could'nt happen naturaly (chances are far too low!!! and as long as it doesn't provide a true advantage to the plant, the mutation would not stay by natural selection. (eg : what are the chances that a plant become resistant to Roundup and that this mutation could be usefull on a earth without humans? None))

And just look at what we can do now, we can modify plants or animals (cow for example) so they can produce drugs (eg : in milk for cows) that we will use in medicines. Now there is many of our drugs who are produced from GMO, and some who are very importants. I'm not criticising this, this is a very great think as long as the drug is the same, this is great. But you couldn't say that this is "natural", no, this could'nt happen without human intervention, and this is the same for GMO we use for food.
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Old June 18th, 2015, 04:57 AM   #31904
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Anyway, I'm not really against GMOs, I'm just trying to show you that this is not that much "good" for us and that if one goal of TAFTA is to bring them freely in Europe and also in the same time changing the pesticides regulations, etc..., this is probably not in our interrest (Europeans)...

(Sorry for posting so much ! )
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Old June 18th, 2015, 11:19 AM   #31905
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
I always wonder these nationalistic urges for trivial things like regulations

Example, food-safety laws US vs EU
There are many people in USA and they all eat food, and there is no problem
There are many people in EU and they all eat food, and there are no problems.

or automobile safety standards, there are differences. But...
In EU people drive cars to ECE standard and there are no issues
in USA people drive cars to FMVSS standards and there are no issues

Except - if you are from Europe and want to move to USA, can you take your car? Illegal, doesn't meet regulations !

Clearly both regulatory regimes are preventing danger to public and are reasonably effective. It isn't like we are saying, replace EU regulations with Ugandan regulations

In short, it seems Europeans all complaining about TTIP because evil American corporations will steal all the jobs and poison the food supply with Coca-Cola
And Americans are all complaining about TTIP because evil European corporations will steal all the jobs and poison the food supply with menacing materials like French wine (I ignore Austrian wine that is poison )

It seems, to take a broad view of the situation that both arguments are political and essentially BS and we can sleep well instead
I don't know about cars and other stuff, but I'm sure that food safety laws are much stricter in EU compared to the USA.
In the EU the attitude is: illegal until proven harmlessness (principle of precaution).
In the USA the attitude is: legal until proven harmfulness.

Yes, and Monsanto is one of the worst, and most environmentally-threating multi-national companies ever. It doesn't only want to destroy biodiversity by spreading their GMOs, but it also invented the infamous PCB production, that poisoned large parts of the world. In Brescia, Italy, where PCB had been produced for decades by Caffaro (controlled by Monsanto), there is still a high cancer-related mortality rate.

If the USA are currently using GMOs without problems, that isn't enough reassuring, as harmfulness of something may become evident only after decades, after studies involving the observation of number of people affected by a certain disease. It's what happened with many toxic products, like leaded fuel, leaded paint, asbestos in construction, PCB, some agricultural pesticides, some medicaments, that have been proven harmful and thus banned only after they badly damaged the envionment and claimed thousands of innocent lifes.
Large areas in the world are still paying the consequences of the old, reckless, industrial era, during which dangerous chemicals were used without precautions, and toxic waste were dumped everywhere.
Talking about GMOs, I'm not just concerned about dangers related to their consumption, but also to the ecosystem. Those living beings that don't exist in nature may replace the natural ones, causing their estinction and thus the loss of biodiversity. This may happen as GMOs are planned to be more strong and resistant than their natural conterparts. It's the same as dumping some tropical fish in our rivers. They may destroy the eco-system.

I think humans should adapt to nature, not pretending to change it.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old June 18th, 2015, 01:36 PM   #31906
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i watched it yesterday on spanish tv
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Old June 18th, 2015, 03:19 PM   #31907
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Quote:
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Oh nice, I didn't see that you where from Canada
Erm, Kanadzie?
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Old June 18th, 2015, 04:07 PM   #31908
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Quote:
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Erm, Kanadzie?
Right!

But I didn't realised on the moment...

Also look at my pseudo, it's a large city from Canada and I don't live there, I only traveled on this city two years ago, and when I registered on SSC, I remembered it even if I don't know why...
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Old June 18th, 2015, 04:19 PM   #31909
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haha, I was always wondering this one... Winnipeg?

Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
I don't know about cars and other stuff, but I'm sure that food safety laws are much stricter in EU compared to the USA.
In the EU the attitude is: illegal until proven harmlessness (principle of precaution).
In the USA the attitude is: legal until proven harmfulness.
I think this isn't a good attitude though. Proven harmlessness is essentially impossible (like proving there is no God or similar). Proven harmfulness is at least possible to do.

If always waiting for "precaution", humanity can't advance. If ancient man thought this way, would never have made fire and we would still be inside the caves
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Old June 18th, 2015, 08:58 PM   #31910
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
I think this isn't a good attitude though. Proven harmlessness is essentially impossible (like proving there is no God or similar). Proven harmfulness is at least possible to do.

If always waiting for "precaution", humanity can't advance. If ancient man thought this way, would never have made fire and we would still be inside the caves
Well, at least proving that the harm wouldn't be that serious\certain.
Precaution doesn't mean to stop progress, but to commercialize new things after a longer experimentation period.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old June 18th, 2015, 10:24 PM   #31911
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I was reading the Swedish thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The last segment of the E6 motorway between Göteborg and Oslo will open to traffic on 6 July. It is a 7 km segment between Pålen and Tanumshede.

http://www.trafikverket.se/Aktuellt/...dsarvet-tanum/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uppsala View Post
Yes this is very important. This means Norway is going to be a part of the Continental motorways
I make a list about whose European capitals are connected to the motorway network and whose aren't. I excluded islands and microstates for obvious reasons.

EU countries:

Lisboa: Yes
Madrid: Yes
Paris: Yes
Rome: Yes
Vienna: Yes
Berlin: Yes
Amsterdam: Yes
Bruxelles: Yes
Luxembourg: Yes
Copenhagen: Yes
Stockholm: Yes, via the Oresund Bridge
Helsinki: No, there are no conections between Finland and any neighbouring country. It's planned a motorway to Russia, though. Motorways to Sweden or Norway aren't planned due to the remoteness of the area.
Tallinn: No, there are no motorways in Estonia and there aren't plans for them
Riga: No, same as above
Vilnius: No, there are few motorways in Lithuania but they aren't connected to other countries. I'm not sure if there's a plan for a PL-LT motorway.
Warsaw: Yes
Prague: Yes
Bratislava: Yes
Budapest: Yes
Ljubljana: Yes
Zagreb: Yes
Bucarest: No, although a motorway to Hungary is planned (or U/C, I'm not sure)
Sofia: No, although it will probably be connected via Serbia, that isn't part of UE. I'm not sure if the motorway Sofia-Nis is U/C
Athens: No, although the route via Serbia and (Republic of) Macedonia is mostly a motorway, there are still some gaps left in SRB, MK and GR.

Non-EU countries:

Oslo: Yes, E6 to Sweden will be completed in few weeks
Berna: Yes
Sarajevo: No, there is a motorway around it but it doesn't go elsewhere. They're planning a motorway from Osijek to Ploce via Sarajevo
Belgrade: Yes
Skopje: No, the motorway towards Belgrade is U/C
Tirana: No, there is a motorway but it doesn't go far away from the city
Podgorica: No, there are no motorways in Montenegro
Pristina: No, although there is a motorway to Albania
Moscow: No, although it has many motorways around it. They're planning a Moscow-Saint Petersburg-Finnish border motorway.
Minsk: No, although it has many motorways around it.
Kiev: No, it has only a short motorway to the airport.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old June 19th, 2015, 12:45 AM   #31912
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Old June 19th, 2015, 01:11 AM   #31913
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^ this guy was also featured on Tesla's facebook page.
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Old June 19th, 2015, 02:26 AM   #31914
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Excellent!!
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Old June 19th, 2015, 09:57 AM   #31915
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Old June 19th, 2015, 03:33 PM   #31916
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Map of Asia according to "The Guardian"
Notice the Iranian city of Doha


http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-media-reports
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old June 19th, 2015, 06:39 PM   #31917
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Old June 19th, 2015, 06:54 PM   #31918
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Same in the Netherlands today. 14 degrees and rainy.

On the other hand, the last time when it was 30 degrees early June people complained a lot due to the humidity.
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Old June 19th, 2015, 06:58 PM   #31919
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I never complain about heat!
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Old June 19th, 2015, 07:00 PM   #31920
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I never complain about heat!
I never complain about cold weather
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