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Old January 20th, 2016, 08:34 PM   #33261
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It's a 2015 model with 11,000 km. So not entirely new, but warranty until mid-2020. It comes with climate control and cruise control. It's my first car with cruise control, I absolutely loved it during the test drive.

I also got a good trade-in with my 2011 Hyundai i10. The depreciation was only € 500 per year. It's my 5th car.

So far I've owned;

2006: a 1994 Toyota Corolla (totaled in France)
2006: a 1995 Peugeot 306
2008: a 2004 Renault Kangoo (commercial van)
2014: a 2011 Hyundai i10
2016: a 2015 Hyundai i10

So it's the first time I've purchased a car of the same brand. The 2011 i10 was very practical and economical, but noise insulation wasn't too good at highway speed. The new i10 is a definite upgrade in terms of comfort and handling, and it's surprisingly quiet. The motoring press often commented that 'it feels like driving a larger class'. The 5 year warranty is a big draw for me, because there won't be any surprise repairs for the next few years.
Nice, but it's strange that you see so much the difference while this new model is only an upgrade... For cruise control, you're definitly right, I post-installed it on my 2010 Peugeot 207 (I just needed the remote which was around 60€ and to activate it on the car because all the 207 are builded so there is space for the remote even if you don't buy it...), even if usually it's something cars makers won't do (thanks Peugeot Romania for that even if I could have activated it by myself with the Peugeot Diagbox kit aht I have (it cost around 50€ from China...)) and since then I have made thousands of kilometers with the cruise and it works like a charm!

So at least you won a way better looking car (they have made a great work for the design because -sorry to tell that- but the 2011 version was a bit ugly, the 2015 looks way better! ). But why you haven't upgraded for a car a little bit bigger like the i20 or something else...? (And you doesn't seems to live in a very large city...)
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Old January 20th, 2016, 08:49 PM   #33262
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I thought of i20, but the new model is a bit above my budget (I don't take loans for a new car, I just save up enough money). The previous model is a bit 'meh' in terms of design and the current i10 really impressed me with its handling and comfort.

The Netherlands has quite high CO2 taxes, so that means that anything above a city car is quite expensive. For example, a new i20 with the same specifications as my new i10 has over € 5000 worth of taxes on it. Overall it is € 6000 more expensive than my i10.
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Old January 20th, 2016, 09:10 PM   #33263
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I've noticed that the Japanese car market share isn't very big in France, I'll try to find some figures to compare it to other European countries.
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Old January 20th, 2016, 10:05 PM   #33264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I thought of i20, but the new model is a bit above my budget (I don't take loans for a new car, I just save up enough money). The previous model is a bit 'meh' in terms of design and the current i10 really impressed me with its handling and comfort.

The Netherlands has quite high CO2 taxes, so that means that anything above a city car is quite expensive. For example, a new i20 with the same specifications as my new i10 has over € 5000 worth of taxes on it. Overall it is € 6000 more expensive than my i10.
Ok, I understand!

OMG, 5000€ of CO2 taxes for a car such the i20???

In my opinion, the guys who decided this kind of taxes are also responsable for the whole Volkswagen manipulation and also the fact that car makers are optimizing their car for emissions tests (without cheating like VW did, only motor optimizations, like the reveals about Renault lasts days, and probably most of the cars manufacturers...), this resulting in the fact that what are mesured at emissions tests are impossible to reach in "real life"... What a joke...
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Old January 20th, 2016, 10:21 PM   #33265
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I've noticed that the Japanese car market share isn't very big in France, I'll try to find some figures to compare it to other European countries.
Well yes and no.... In fact did you know the most manufactured car in France is a japanese car?

This is the Toyota Yaris (made in Valenciennes in northern France, they are hiring around 4100 workers and build 270.000 cars a year, they are exporting those cars in all Europe and even northern America...), the Yaris is quite popular in France because of this "made in France" (Toyota is fully using this as a marketing tool, for example they made an TV add with robots and tolls inside the factory who are playing the french hymn : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKC7mENiiiU )

But yes the top ten most sold car in France in 2015 are french cars (we are kind of "nationalists" for that ), and it's kind of "normal" I guess, for example I guess that in Germany the most sold cars are germans!
And at the same time, there's not so much countries with such huge cars makers like we have in France (Renault, Peugeot, Citroen) or Germany (BMW, VW AG, Opel, Mercedes)... In fact there in fact, for now, there's only 4 countries like that I guess : Germany, France, USA and Japan...

(The Toyota Yaris is only the 16th most sold car in France, right after come the Nissan Qashquai (but is kind of a franco-japanese car), VW is 11th with Polo and 15th with Golf).

Last edited by winnipeg; January 20th, 2016 at 10:27 PM.
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Old January 20th, 2016, 10:26 PM   #33266
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The Netherlands had very market-distorting taxes for company cars. Some models like the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV or VW Golf GTE had very high sales in the Netherlands compared to other countries, while popular cars in other countries are not sold in the Netherlands. For instance, the i10 is not sold with the 1.2 L engine because of the CO2 taxes making it uncompetitive. Almost no small cars in the Netherlands are sold with diesel engines, because they are too expensive to buy and operate due to high taxes. In addition, automatic transmissions are not as popular due to the higher fuel consumption = punishing CO2 tax.

But the road tax structure varies from country to country, for example in Belgium the cars are taxed according to horsepower, while in Germany the cars are taxed according to engine displacement. In the Netherlands, cars are also taxed according to weight and fuel type.
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Old January 20th, 2016, 11:09 PM   #33267
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Of features that became common after mid-2000s on economic cars, nothing beats cruise control in terms of changing the driving experience in highways. Nothing more comfortable than setting the cruise control and letting it go. It is even better when the cruise control also has up/down set buttons that allow you to set the speed to a number, and change it with the controls, without pushing the accelerator. I think that is the standard on Renault/Nissan and all (other) Japanese cars, but not on Volvo, Opel or Ford (or it didn't use to be at least).

The best combo is cruise control + automatic transmission or cars that will change the gear while actuating c.c. If you see a speed reduction sign and have plenty of space to adjust (not a tight curve or anything like that), you just press down the speed button and let the car slow down. For safety reasons, I think, cars won't ever automatically brake under cruise control, but they will cut fuel to minimum flow and then downshift.

What is the English name for this technical condition btw (car on, gear engaged, no acceleration and thus minimum fuel injection barely enough to prevent stalling)?
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Old January 20th, 2016, 11:52 PM   #33268
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Of features that became common after mid-2000s on economic cars, nothing beats cruise control in terms of changing the driving experience in highways. Nothing more comfortable than setting the cruise control and letting it go. It is even better when the cruise control also has up/down set buttons that allow you to set the speed to a number, and change it with the controls, without pushing the accelerator. I think that is the standard on Renault/Nissan and all (other) Japanese cars, but not on Volvo, Opel or Ford (or it didn't use to be at least).
I like it. You can literally control your speed by keyboard

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What is the English name for this technical condition btw (car on, gear engaged, no acceleration and thus minimum fuel injection barely enough to prevent stalling)?
You mean the condition, when the engine is likely to be died. I don't know if it has special name.

Btw. I do not have good experiences with Skodas. The cars my Dad had had always insolvable problems (flicking indicators, car tilting to the side, etc.). On the other hand, the cars were really solid. We had been involved in some accidents and our cars always survived with only small scratches, while the other cars were almost totalled.
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Old January 20th, 2016, 11:59 PM   #33269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The Netherlands had very market-distorting taxes for company cars. Some models like the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV or VW Golf GTE had very high sales in the Netherlands compared to other countries, while popular cars in other countries are not sold in the Netherlands. For instance, the i10 is not sold with the 1.2 L engine because of the CO2 taxes making it uncompetitive. Almost no small cars in the Netherlands are sold with diesel engines, because they are too expensive to buy and operate due to high taxes. In addition, automatic transmissions are not as popular due to the higher fuel consumption = punishing CO2 tax.

But the road tax structure varies from country to country, for example in Belgium the cars are taxed according to horsepower, while in Germany the cars are taxed according to engine displacement. In the Netherlands, cars are also taxed according to weight and fuel type.
Thanks for these explanations!

In France we have a system of bonus/malus according to CO2 emissions (here is what it looks like : http://www.lefigaro.fr/assets/infogr...onus_malus.png for 2014 ), but it seems that it is way more clement with cars who have a "medium" level of CO2 emissions, for instance, I don't think that an i20 would be taxed that way... be we probably have also a less generous bonus than Netherlands for greeners cars like hybrids or electrics cars...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Of features that became common after mid-2000s on economic cars, nothing beats cruise control in terms of changing the driving experience in highways. Nothing more comfortable than setting the cruise control and letting it go. It is even better when the cruise control also has up/down set buttons that allow you to set the speed to a number, and change it with the controls, without pushing the accelerator. I think that is the standard on Renault/Nissan and all (other) Japanese cars, but not on Volvo, Opel or Ford (or it didn't use to be at least).

The best combo is cruise control + automatic transmission or cars that will change the gear while actuating c.c. If you see a speed reduction sign and have plenty of space to adjust (not a tight curve or anything like that), you just press down the speed button and let the car slow down. For safety reasons, I think, cars won't ever automatically brake under cruise control, but they will cut fuel to minimum flow and then downshift.

What is the English name for this technical condition btw (car on, gear engaged, no acceleration and thus minimum fuel injection barely enough to prevent stalling)?
I couldn't more agree, since I have it on my 207, I noticed 2 things : it takes more time until I become tired while driving on highways and also I'm globaly making less speed excess : I let the cruise making the job and I no more have to think about if I'm going too fast or not...

Yes, I have this system on my Peugeot, there's buttons to change the speed of cruise control, it is incredibely confortable, especially in German highways where you have some working areas with limitated speed every 50/100km or so...
For comparison, during last october, I rented a recent Toyota Corola in Chicago and the system was quite different, if I remember well, I was not able to change the speed whitouth touching the accelerator...

Well the manual gear box doesn't disturb me, with habit, I don't even have to thing about when I have to change the speed, I do it almost automaticaly And if an automatic gearbox would be a gain in confort, I'm not sure that I want it for now, changing speed is something that is part of the pleasure I have while driving...

I think that some of the latest premium europeans cars (or Teslas also) are already able to do that, to reduce the speed of the car if they "see" that the traffic is going slower in front of you?
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Old January 21st, 2016, 12:12 AM   #33270
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I think that some of the latest premium europeans cars (or Teslas also) are already able to do that, to reduce the speed of the car if they "see" that the traffic is going slower in front of you?
It is called distance camera or distance radar and if I am not mistaken, some of European brands (like Mercedes or BMW) have been able to do it since 2010. If the distance radar is activated, the car usually tighten the seatbelts too.

But I don't like such thing. It makes the driver in a car equipped by that device more tailgating and the driver ahead is usually getting more stressed.
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Old January 21st, 2016, 12:20 AM   #33271
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It is called distance camera or distance radar and if I am not mistaken, some of European brands (like Mercedes or BMW) have been able to do it since 2010. If the distance radar is activated, the car usually tighten the seatbelts too.

But I don't like such thing. It makes the driver in a car equipped by that device more tailgating and the driver ahead is usually getting more stressed.
Probably that it was firstly exclusive to germans premiums cars, but now this is more generalised, for instance, I just checked, and even the Peugeot 308 has this in option (automaticly lowering the speed when you use the cruise control and the car in front of you is going slower... and also automatic emergency breaking), so this is certainly available in a large number of brands actualy...

Well I don't know, I don't exactly see the link with tailgating (lots of idiotic drivers are driving like this with cars who haven't such options...), but it's definitly a great safety improvment, and this is certainly a mandatory thing for my next car!
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Old January 21st, 2016, 02:31 AM   #33272
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I think he means people would rely on the car assistance services and drive closer to the car in front.
Or they will set the (tailgating) distance at the minimum (not sure what values can be set here, I don't have such a thing in my car, only the classic CC).
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Old January 21st, 2016, 04:33 AM   #33273
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It is surprising low popularity of Japanese cars in EU markets compared to North America. In Canada, the single best-selling car for many years is Honda Civic (made in Canada), and in high sales volume (e.g. top 10 most popular) usually also find Toyota Corolla (made in Canada) and Mazda 3 (Japan made)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Of features that became common after mid-2000s on economic cars, nothing beats cruise control in terms of changing the driving experience in highways. Nothing more comfortable than setting the cruise control and letting it go. It is even better when the cruise control also has up/down set buttons that allow you to set the speed to a number, and change it with the controls, without pushing the accelerator. I think that is the standard on Renault/Nissan and all (other) Japanese cars, but not on Volvo, Opel or Ford (or it didn't use to be at least).

The best combo is cruise control + automatic transmission or cars that will change the gear while actuating c.c. If you see a speed reduction sign and have plenty of space to adjust (not a tight curve or anything like that), you just press down the speed button and let the car slow down. For safety reasons, I think, cars won't ever automatically brake under cruise control, but they will cut fuel to minimum flow and then downshift.

What is the English name for this technical condition btw (car on, gear engaged, no acceleration and thus minimum fuel injection barely enough to prevent stalling)?
Overrun fuel-cutoff (that is more British-English)
That said generally there should be zero fuel injection if the engine speed is greater than approx 1500 rpm with the accelerator released
The engine is being backdriven in such instance by the gearbox (with the torque converter locked)

I have to say I've never seen a car with cruise control that didn't allow for adjustment of the speed with the buttons, and that is going back to cars from early 1980's ! Are you sure maybe you didn't know the function of the buttons (e.g. on typical GM if you push "SET" and hold it, car slows down, on Saab if you push "SET" and hold it, car speeds up!)

I have to say automatic cars have gotten a lot smarter. I've driven late-model automatics that if you are rolling down a large hill for example, and maybe tap the brake once, the gearbox automatically downshifts to 5th, 4th or 3rd to maintain the speed, even with cruise control off. I thought it was interesting it was able to "realize" the situation (I guess, ECU notices increasing vehicle speed with throttle position zero and starts pulling gears)
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Old January 21st, 2016, 05:37 AM   #33274
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I have to say I've never seen a car with cruise control that didn't allow for adjustment of the speed with the buttons, and that is going back to cars from early 1980's ! Are you sure maybe you didn't know the function of the buttons (e.g. on typical GM if you push "SET" and hold it, car slows down, on Saab if you push "SET" and hold it, car speeds up!)

I have to say automatic cars have gotten a lot smarter. I've driven late-model automatics that if you are rolling down a large hill for example, and maybe tap the brake once, the gearbox automatically downshifts to 5th, 4th or 3rd to maintain the speed, even with cruise control off. I thought it was interesting it was able to "realize" the situation (I guess, ECU notices increasing vehicle speed with throttle position zero and starts pulling gears)
I'm speaking of some cars a rich relative of mine used to drive in the mid-1990s.

----------------------------

I mentioned before I drove a Tesla for a friend to/from airport, twice. I totally love the idea of electric car and I want one in the future (not necessarily a Tesla, but a full electric compact car). The ride is extremely smooth on Dutch perfect surfaces. I drove it through some minor roads, it feels almost like cycling in regard of noise, at low speeds.
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Old January 21st, 2016, 09:40 AM   #33275
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It is surprising low popularity of Japanese cars in EU markets compared to North America. In Canada, the single best-selling car for many years is Honda Civic (made in Canada), and in high sales volume (e.g. top 10 most popular) usually also find Toyota Corolla (made in Canada) and Mazda 3 (Japan made)...
Because probably that the US market has moved slower than Europe into cheap cars and new manufacturing methods... because that's essencially what Japanese car manufacturers like Toyota bring to us (for good or bad, some of the empoyees are complaining about the way Toyota plants are working...).

I think that the major difference is that ou European compagnies are been more able to make correct cheap cars quickly than US car manufacturers did, even if that involved to produce in countries with lower labor costs, and some old car brands in poor situation at the time has been taken over by western european companies to produce some great ultra-competitve cars like Skoda or Dacia... especialy Dacia, I think that it's probably the brand that played the biggest part during the last years... And even far of lowcost brands, we have plenty of european brands that can produce great cheap cars : Fiat, Opel, Peugeot, etc...

I simply think that northern american companies can't produce as cheap cars than japanese did, and probably that they have accepted this so far, and deliberatly let them take the market of cheap cars while they (Ford, GM,...) keep their eyes on the middle-range/premium market, but the competition is tough I guess, especialy with german premium brands that seems very popular in northern america...
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Old January 21st, 2016, 09:58 AM   #33276
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I'm speaking of some cars a rich relative of mine used to drive in the mid-1990s.

----------------------------

I mentioned before I drove a Tesla for a friend to/from airport, twice. I totally love the idea of electric car and I want one in the future (not necessarily a Tesla, but a full electric compact car). The ride is extremely smooth on Dutch perfect surfaces. I drove it through some minor roads, it feels almost like cycling in regard of noise, at low speeds.
Not sure that electrical cars are part of the future, and more specificly, even more about Tesla, probably the most entousiasming actual car maker...

The fact is that even if for now Tesla cars are very expensive, Tesla is actualy losing money for each car sold ( http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...ob-lutz-tesla/ ) and a huge loss of hundreds of millions $...

About electrical, were not sure that it will be the future as for now this is just a big joke and an environmental disaster as to produce the elements that are coming from "rare earths" like lithium (batteries) or neodyme (huge magnets in electrical motors), you have to spend plenty of energy and create a huge polution as these elements are very rare and hard to find (their amount on a ton of earth is very low...).

Also the question of electricity is important as this is a non-stockable product for now...


In my opinion I would see a better future for hydrogen cars : as electrical cars, same use, no emissions... but filling the tank takes only few minutes and the fact is that you can produce the hydrogen from what you want, from natural gas (way cleaner than the actual petrol we are using) or even better, from electricity overproduced or electricity produced by renevable energy...

About this, I'm very very entousiasmed with what has done Toyota with the Mirai : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY1TBX4-m5w
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Old January 21st, 2016, 10:59 AM   #33277
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Belgian cars are much cheaper than in the Netherlands. Especially with mid-size diesel cars the cost difference can be over € 5000.
.
I know your taxes are insane. A fully equiped sedan in Belgium is usually around 30.000-35.000 euro's. Wich is why you see a lot of big cars in Belgium wich have a lot of luxery inside.

EDIT:

For 19.000 euro's (23.000) with a 4000 euro discount I bought:
(Planning to pay 7000 up front and the rest within 2,5 years)

Skoda Rapid Ambiton 1,4 TDI 66KW 5-speed mech
1422cm3- 8CV
Quartz Grey

Interior:
Fabric: Synthetic Black/Quartz Grey

Pack ambition Look:
Darkened back windows
protection strips in color of cars on the body work
windshield wiper on back window (not standard with skoda)
17'' alu rims

Pack Ambition Confort:
Park distance control front and back
Cruise control
Rain and light sensor
Winter pack (heated seating and windows)
electrically controlled windows (4)
Electrically controlled seat hights in front (2)
Extra carptes in front and back

Pack Ambition GPS
auto Airco - climatronic- with absorption and coal filter
bluetooth, with extra antenna for handsfree calling
Radio standard (Gen 2 / touch)
GPS standard
Maxi DOT creen for board computer
Self darkening mirrors
Soundpackage Arkamys
Control pannel for radio and telephone
Chroompackage
Voice control
AUX-IN, USB iPod Interface
Cooled dashboardlocker
Leader steering wheel, handbrake and gearbox stick

- removable towing hook
- Black pack ( black mirrors, front and back lights, black foglichts front with LED day lighting

-Spare wheel (steel rim)
-jacking equipment
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Old January 21st, 2016, 11:48 AM   #33278
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In my opinion I would see a better future for hydrogen cars : as electrical cars, same use, no emissions... but filling the tank takes only few minutes and the fact is that you can produce the hydrogen from what you want, from natural gas (way cleaner than the actual petrol we are using) or even better, from electricity overproduced or electricity produced by renevable energy...
The extreme poor energy to volume rate of hydrogen is the key constraint creating the current big gap between dreams and the reality. In metal tanks, the payload is less than 2% of the total system mass, and the hydrogen leaks through the tank walls. That makes it nearly impossible to use the solar power of Sahara to create hydrogen, and then transport the tanks for thousands of kilometers. Therefore, the concept of making the hydrogen at the pump is under consideration. This process will not most probably be free from emissions.

The car factories have constructed tanks from composite materials, holding the pressure up to 700 bar. It is easy to guess that this is not a cheap approach.

Another research path is to store hydrogen in carrier materials. The lowest rather-well-behaving carrier is methyl alcohol. The problem is that methyl alcohol contains hydrogen 12.5% only by weight. (For ethanol, the ratio is about 13%.) More advanced carriers have been found, but we are still waiting for the final breakthrough.

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Old January 21st, 2016, 12:50 PM   #33279
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Do Baltic states have motorways or are they considered as highways?
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Old January 21st, 2016, 02:19 PM   #33280
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Only Lithuania AFAIK.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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