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Old March 7th, 2016, 04:09 PM   #33681
g.spinoza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
There are still certain requirements (standards) for synoptic weather stations. You don't have to use exactly the same sensors to have comparable data, that has nothing to do with standardization.
Of course not, but the "requirements" are different for every country, and it's very difficult to get each meteo service to talk to others...

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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Which has what to do with license plates?
It was an example, you know.
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Old March 7th, 2016, 05:05 PM   #33682
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I interrupt this stimulating discussion of the necessity of uniformity for the Exotic Food Announcement of the Day:

http://www.phillyvoice.com/smokes-po...coming-philly/

(attn., Kanadzie)

But, Spinoza, Suburbanist et al., have you weighed in yet on General Maximus's thread about doing away with the wild variety of road signage in Europe?
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Old March 7th, 2016, 06:26 PM   #33683
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I am all for uniformity and standardization. It's my job.
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Old March 7th, 2016, 06:41 PM   #33684
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Of course not, but the "requirements" are different for every country, and it's very difficult to get each meteo service to talk to others...
I guess that is true but you can still use data within countries to plot a timeline of temperatures (if the locations and requirements for measuring the data haven't changed). There are, of course othe external factors which might affect the reliability of those measurements such as urbanisation (meteorological stations previously in rural areas might now be within a built-up area).

There are also other phenomena which indicate the rise in temperatures: the changing of seasons, ice cover duration and extent, the size of glaciers etc.

My point is that the warming in the last century is undeniable. If you can put a specific number in temperature to the extent it has happened is another matter.
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Old March 7th, 2016, 06:59 PM   #33685
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I am all for uniformity and standardization. It's my job.
Even when it's of questionable benefit, it doesn't affect you, and the effort and expense would fall to others?

Or are there lots of wildly colored North American license plates tooling around Turin and Tilburg giving you and Suburbanist migraines?

(Where's Road_UK when we need him? Oh, right....)
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Old March 7th, 2016, 07:24 PM   #33686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
I guess that is true but you can still use data within countries to plot a timeline of temperatures (if the locations and requirements for measuring the data haven't changed). There are, of course othe external factors which might affect the reliability of those measurements such as urbanisation (meteorological stations previously in rural areas might now be within a built-up area).
This is true for meteorology, but climatology needs a whole different approach, and standardization is key.

Quote:
My point is that the warming in the last century is undeniable. If you can put a specific number in temperature to the extent it has happened is another matter.
Agreed.







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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Even when it's of questionable benefit, it doesn't affect you, and the effort and expense would fall to others?
Standardization always pays off in the long run. It may be costly now, but one just has to look ahead.
Maybe you find a specific issue questionable, and at the same time it is vital for the rest of the world...
I know this smells of communism and Americans cannot even hear the word.

Quote:
Or are there lots of wildly colored North American license plates tooling around Turin and Tilburg giving you and Suburbanist migraines?

(Where's Road_UK when we need him? Oh, right....)
I have no interest whatsoever in American license plates. I'm just thinking about how things would be easier in Europe if we had a common design.
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Old March 7th, 2016, 09:54 PM   #33687
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Without standardization there is no point in talking about global warming, for instance. Every Automatic Weather Station in the world should (in principle) measure the same thing, with the same sensors, calibrated in the same way.
Unfortunately, everyone's doing it in his own way, so who knows what "temperature of the Earth" means...
Also in more "concrete" and everyday things standardization is a big help in terms of efficiency.

Imagine if every clothes brand adopted a different sizes scale.
Imagine if every computer brand adopted a different connection port, instead of the standard USB.
Imagine of every model of remote control, clock, etc... required its own kind of batteries, instead of the standard AA or AAA.
Imagine if every OS or even computer\tablet\mobile brand adopted different file formats not compatible each other.
Imagine if some webpages could be visited only with a browser and not with another because they use different, incompatible, protocols.
Imagine if every town or region adopted its own local dialect (without a standardized national language), its own currency and its own measurement units like it was in the Middle Age.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old March 7th, 2016, 10:01 PM   #33688
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But there are things where it's unnecessary. Carry standardization to its logical extreme and you've got North Korea or Maoist China. There's no harm in people dressing differently or having different haircuts. Or, I'd argue, in not having identical license plates.
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Old March 7th, 2016, 10:17 PM   #33689
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
But there are things where it's unnecessary. Carry standardization to its logical extreme and you've got North Korea or Maoist China. There's no harm in people dressing differently or having different haircuts. Or, I'd argue, in not having identical license plates.
Are you seriously comparing having the same license plate with wearing the same haircut? If so, discussion ends here.
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Old March 7th, 2016, 10:26 PM   #33690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Without standardization there is no point in talking about global warming, for instance. Every Automatic Weather Station in the world should (in principle) measure the same thing, with the same sensors, calibrated in the same way.
Unfortunately, everyone's doing it in his own way, so who knows what "temperature of the Earth" means...
At least the changes are possible to be detected even without calibrated sensors.

Nough said about the climate change.
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Old March 7th, 2016, 10:59 PM   #33691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
But there are things where it's unnecessary. Carry standardization to its logical extreme and you've got North Korea or Maoist China. There's no harm in people dressing differently or having different haircuts. Or, I'd argue, in not having identical license plates.
In the case of license plates I think that the only things that need to be standardized are the size\shape (to be able to instal standard plate holder in every car, regardless where it will be sold) and the characters (that need to be OCR readable and mutually exclusive, not like the Sweden\Lithuania thing).
EU did a good job in implementing the blue band with the country code, to replace the bulky and un-aestetic white ovals.

BTW, standardization is not stricly communism-related, but also very capitalism-related. For a company, it's much more cost-effective to make a single version of its product and market it in 28 countries, instead of making 28 different versions of it, to fulfil every country's own standards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Are you seriously comparing having the same license plate with wearing the same haircut? If so, discussion ends here.
Are Mao and Kim Jong other versions of the Godwin's Law?
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old March 7th, 2016, 11:08 PM   #33692
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Are you seriously comparing having the same license plate with wearing the same haircut? If so, discussion ends here.
You're the one who said standardization and uniformity were always good....

(And made an unnecessary dig about communism.)
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Old March 7th, 2016, 11:18 PM   #33693
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
In the case of license plates I think that the only things that need to be standardized are the size\shape (to be able to instal standard plate holder in every car, regardless where it will be sold) and the characters (that need to be OCR readable and mutually exclusive, not like the Sweden\Lithuania thing).
EU did a good job in implementing the blue band with the country code, to replace the bulky and un-aestetic white ovals.

BTW, standardization is not stricly communism-related, but also very capitalism-related. For a company, it's much more cost-effective to make a single version of its product and market it in 28 countries, instead of making 28 different versions of it, to fulfil every country's own standards.


Are Mao and Kim Jong other versions of the Godwin's Law?
We already have license plates that are the same size from one jurisdiction to the next. Which you can't say in Europe. (And if we adopted eight-character plates, we'd probably need to change the size of those plate holders....)
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Old March 7th, 2016, 11:35 PM   #33694
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
You're the one who said standardization and uniformity were always good....

(And made an unnecessary dig about communism.)
It's pretty obvious that standardization and uniformity are good when they bring any actual practical/economical benefit (like the case of technological standards), while they're bad when they don't bring any (like the case of haircuts).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
We already have license plates that are the same size from one jurisdiction to the next. Which you can't say in Europe. (And if we adopted eight-character plates, we'd probably need to change the size of those plate holders....)
Most European plates have the same size (with some exceptions, like Italian and Swiss front plates being smaller). Some countries issue USA-sized plates for vehicles in which they fit better.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

Last edited by italystf; March 7th, 2016 at 11:41 PM.
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Old March 7th, 2016, 11:43 PM   #33695
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Agreed. Which brings us back to questions Kanadzie and I both asked yesterday, and which have been answered only with irrelevancies about global warning and ridiculous absolutes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
but that costs a lot of money, and would it bring any desirable result to the country?
Police, etc usually seem to have no issue at all working with the present system.

Except that poor guy who has a vanity plate with code "NO PLATE" and keeps getting parking tickets around the state for cars that had no license plate on them
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I've never found "standardization" and "uniformity" to be persuasive arguments for doing anything.

Don't just say "standardization," period, as if that's self-evidently a good thing; explain why it's a good thing. And in fact why it's not just a good thing, but sufficiently better than the current system to justify the cost (in money, time and effort) of changing it.
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Old March 8th, 2016, 01:27 AM   #33696
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more importantly, how would we accomodate "vanity" license plate combinations? You'd have so many less possibilities if other states have taken your choice already

Smoke's Poutinerie surprised me so much years ago as a young guy walking around downtown (well the east edge in a run down part) Toronto when I found it. I was like... what the hell, the Quebecois weapon of arterial destruction right in the heart of the "anglo Canada"

I still can't get a proper smoked meat sandwich or bagel in southern Ontario but there are poutine places everywhere, and I still get bemused reactions from Quebec people when I mention the popularity of it in the GTA... at least I can get a decent kotlet schabowy with kapusta on the side in multiple places, and I'm a fan of rotis... (the sore part so missed by people threatened by "multi-kulti" - the food!)
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Last edited by Kanadzie; March 8th, 2016 at 01:35 AM.
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Old March 8th, 2016, 09:47 AM   #33697
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
You're the one who said standardization and uniformity were always good....

(And made an unnecessary dig about communism.)
And I stand by my argument, which didn't call for an obviously silly reply.
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Old March 8th, 2016, 11:23 AM   #33698
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Also in more "concrete" and everyday things standardization is a big help in terms of efficiency.

Imagine if every clothes brand adopted a different sizes scale.
They do actually. To a certain extent anyway. I'm either a standard fit XL or XXL depending on the brand of clothing.
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Old March 8th, 2016, 04:36 PM   #33699
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
And I stand by my argument, which didn't call for an obviously silly reply.
It's not silly: is uniformity any more necessary in license plates than it is in clothing, haircuts...or European directional signage? You still haven't answered that. Kanadzie and I ask why is this necessary, what's the benefit...point out that the current system doesn't seem to bother anyone.... You didn't want to hear it. Forgive the hell out of me for questioning Your Knowledgableness.

YOU said always. That didn't admit of any exceptions. Any silliness here is in THAT argument; all I did was point it out.
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Old March 8th, 2016, 04:42 PM   #33700
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One more thing. I'm less allergic to communism (although...) than I am to being told what to do by know-it-alls six time zones away who are apparently obsessed with making the whole world do everything exactly the way it's done in western Europe. Do you have issues with our electrical outlets and voltage? Our clothes sizing?

One solution to your problem would be, of course, to never leave Italy....
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