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Old April 19th, 2016, 12:44 AM   #33841
Verso
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Ivory Coast demands that the name of the country would be "Cote d'Ivoire" in all languages. So you can keep calling it Ivory Coast, but in formal contexts it has to be Cote d'Ivoire.
The Netherlands (Nederland) is also translated in many languages. I wonder if they like "Nizozemska". Anyway, I'd consider "Ivory Coast" and "Cte d'Ivoire" both correct in English (and they are).

Foreigners don't have many problems with English, it's just a few things that annoys us, like "the police are" instead of "the police is" like in other languages. I'd consider both forms correct.
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Old April 19th, 2016, 01:31 AM   #33842
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Well, as long as you don't call it Holland, it's fine. That's invented by Amsterdam advertising companies but is very offensive for a large part of the Netherlands. A bit like saying a Scott that he lives in England.
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Old April 19th, 2016, 01:56 AM   #33843
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I won't call you Holland if you don't call us Slovakia.
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Old April 19th, 2016, 02:29 AM   #33844
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I really admire the above debate. There are so many totally hilarious comments by you guys. It's great, you're all awesome

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Georgia, not the US state but the country in Caucasus also claimed that its name shall be Georgia in every languages. However in Hungarian it's called Grzia (pronounce like Grooseeah) which is the Russian name of that country. They don't like it, I think. The Hungarian authorities have been discussing about it for ten years, some call it Georgia (but pronouncing it very different from the English pronounciation, like gheorgheeah), some Grzia.
Ukranians really seem to hate when Anglophones refer to "Kiev" which was the standard name... more or less after Ukrainian independence, started talking of Kyiv, it seems to have become standard now (but it is so hard to say across an anglo palate compared to easy and memorable Kiev...) Even right now my computer says Kyiv is a spelling mistake and Kiev OK Similarly Breslau now seems to only refer to the town in Canada and never Wroclaw...

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Of course, I still say "Burma" and "Peking," so.... (And why are francophones allowed to say "Birmanie" and "Pkin" while we "have to" say "Myanmar" and "Beijing"?)
Well it depends. I still say Burma but I think the resistance to "Myanmar" was more because the government who came up with it was judged illegitimate by the West (certainly France, UK and US) and so continued to use Burma and its translations.
But now they have done some elections and Suu Kyi is doing something, so maybe now we are supposed to take it?
Regardless, french papers in Montreal have talked about Myanmar for decades and I still say Burma when I want to get shaving cream

Pekin (and Tientsin vs. Tianjin, etc) comes from an older romanization of Chinese language, while Mao forced everyone to use pinyin style which comes up with Beijing. If an anglophone says either of these words, actual Chinese people will have no idea what you are talking about as neither sounds remotely similar to what that city is actually called. Which, is of no importance, as we all know Shanghai is much better.

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Originally Posted by 8166UY View Post
Well, as long as you don't call it Holland, it's fine. That's invented by Amsterdam advertising companies but is very offensive for a large part of the Netherlands. A bit like saying a Scott that he lives in England.
Scott is English, he won't mind. Now a Scot though
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Last edited by Kanadzie; April 19th, 2016 at 06:06 AM.
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Old April 19th, 2016, 05:07 AM   #33845
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I really admire the above debate. There are so many totally hilarious comments by you guys. It's great, you're all awesome
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Old April 19th, 2016, 11:09 AM   #33846
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8166UY View Post
Well, as long as you don't call it Holland, it's fine. That's invented by Amsterdam advertising companies but is very offensive for a large part of the Netherlands. A bit like saying a Scott that he lives in England.
By default, the foreigners are not usually aware of those local parochial disputes related to words and place names. Therefore, using a "wrong" name seldom is offensive.

In Finnish, for example, the "official" translation of the Netherlands is used rather rarely, and the name "Hollanti" is most often used. It does not contain anything offensive.

The four neighboring countries of Finland (Sweden, Norway, Russia, Estonia; Sverige, Norge, Rossija, Eesti in the local languages) carry the names Ruotsi, Norja, Venj and Viro in Finnish. The Finnish names of Sweden and Estonia refer to a single province of those countries: Roslagen and Virumaa. I am rather confident that the Swedes and Estonians do not see these names offensive.
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Old April 19th, 2016, 11:33 AM   #33847
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In Hungarian:
Holland = Dutch (adjective)
Hollandia = Netherlands (name of the country).
And I am sure that less than 0.1% of Hungarian people have ever heard about the 'Holland' issue, they simply call that nation and country so because they learned it so in the school.
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Old April 19th, 2016, 12:31 PM   #33848
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Estonia is called "Viro" in Finnish? That's interesting since Finnish and Estonian are very close to each other.
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Old April 19th, 2016, 03:29 PM   #33849
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Holland is somewhat of a brand. Even trucks from companies not located in one of the two Holland provinces will say 'Holland'.

However in Dutch, people will rarely ever refer to the country as 'Holland', it's always 'Nederland', except maybe for football/soccer events.

English-language media seems to have adopted 'Netherlands' though.

But the whole situation in somewhat weird. We're from the Netherlands, but the country is often called Holland and we speak Dutch. Browsing through Wikipedia, English appears to be the only language where they use 'Dutch' instead of a word closer to Netherlands or Hollandish.
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Old April 19th, 2016, 04:04 PM   #33850
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I think Dutch comes from the same root as Deutsch... maybe ancient Brits thought the two languages were the same...
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Old April 19th, 2016, 04:43 PM   #33851
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The Pennsylviana Dutch are actually German
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Old April 19th, 2016, 05:43 PM   #33852
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Estonia is called "Viro" in Finnish? That's interesting since Finnish and Estonian are very close to each other.
Matti mentioned the reason in his post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
The Finnish names of Sweden and Estonia refer to a single province of those countries: Roslagen and Virumaa. I am rather confident that the Swedes and Estonians do not see these names offensive.
Calling Estonia "Viro" is essentially the same as calling the Netherlands "Holland".
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Old April 19th, 2016, 06:43 PM   #33853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Holland is somewhat of a brand. Even trucks from companies not located in one of the two Holland provinces will say 'Holland'.

However in Dutch, people will rarely ever refer to the country as 'Holland', it's always 'Nederland', except maybe for football/soccer events.

English-language media seems to have adopted 'Netherlands' though.

But the whole situation in somewhat weird. We're from the Netherlands, but the country is often called Holland and we speak Dutch. Browsing through Wikipedia, English appears to be the only language where they use 'Dutch' instead of a word closer to Netherlands or Hollandish.
The Dutch also sometimes refer to themselves as Hollanders.
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Old April 19th, 2016, 06:59 PM   #33854
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I think Dutch comes from the same root as Deutsch... maybe ancient Brits thought the two languages were the same...
They actually were more or less the same at least in some parts of The Netherlands. I am talking especially about Niederdeutsch or Nederduits (Low German).

The Dutch language could be considered a merge of three language groups in fact, Old Low Franconian, Old Frisian and Old Saxon or Low German.

But those West Germanic languages were more or less a language continuum with different dialects.

The Dutch word for Germany is Duitsland and the Germans are called Duitsers, German is Duits.

Dutch <=> Duits. Quite apparent.

In fact I think that English used the term Dutch and its variants also for various German peoples in the middle ages. The term Germany stems obviously from Latin and comes mainly with the process of unification of Germany in the 19th century. The term Germans was at first meant for all Germanic peoples but was reduced to Germany only. Not by mistake as it were Germans who used this term in the middle ages. E.g. they referred to Holy Roman Empire as to Germania.

Last edited by Surel; April 19th, 2016 at 07:10 PM.
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Old April 19th, 2016, 07:40 PM   #33855
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My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife. And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.

Of course I don't speak a word of Latin or Italian. Sometimes I'm called The Spaniard, but I don't speak a word of Spanish. I refer to Rome as Rome because that's the English word for Rome. I'm referring to Spain as Spain because that's the English word for Spain as stated by the Oxford and Cambridge dictionaries. Non-native English speakers can challenge the language all they want... But I'll die with honor to protect local languages without interference from people who think they have command of a language but go a very peculiar way about it.
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Old April 19th, 2016, 09:09 PM   #33856
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Gosh!

So there.
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Old April 19th, 2016, 11:11 PM   #33857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
Matti mentioned the reason in his post:


Calling Estonia "Viro" is essentially the same as calling the Netherlands "Holland".
Why isn't Estonia called "Virumaa" in Finnish?
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Old April 19th, 2016, 11:11 PM   #33858
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
Calling Estonia "Viro" is essentially the same as calling the Netherlands "Holland".
The history of the names are rather evident: The provinces mentioned are the ones closest the coastline of Finland, and therefore the endpoints of the most sailing trips. Not an offense.

Sweden is "Rootsi" in Estonian. Thus, the etymology is the same as the name in Finnish. Calling Sweden "Rootsi" is essentially the same as calling the Netherlands "Holland".

BTW, there south-west area of the mainland Finland carries the official name "True Finland" (Varsinais-Suomi). This name dates back for centuries, too.
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Old April 19th, 2016, 11:44 PM   #33859
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Oh no, don't get me wrong, I'm not offended by the name at all I was just saying that it's not uncommon that a country is called after a single province in another language.

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Why isn't Estonia called "Virumaa" in Finnish?
"Virumaa" is actually a composite word. "Maa" is land in Estonian and is also part of the colloquial names of Estonian counties: Harju county or Harjumaa, Tartu county or Tartumaa etc.

Virumaa has had many different name forms in different languages in the past: Virland, Kreis Wierland, Vironia, Vyronia.
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Old April 20th, 2016, 03:22 AM   #33860
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So Finns call Estonia "Viro", but for Virumaa itself they just use the Estonian name?
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